They never give a reason why from what I've seen. I've tried making brushes by themselves and then joining them all together. This process is alot more time consuming than making a simple box and hollowing it. I always found myself changing the grid size back to 64 again and again when I wanted to make a new part. What's more, is that I did not encounter a single advantage by doing things this way.

---

Just Kidding

Just Kidding

Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?"

Nah, they're lying. Everyone has to use the hollow tool eventually.

Many simply avoid using it when making stuff like buildings because the result is, after all, a simple hollow cube whereas a building is a lot more than just 6 walls and some windows. :heee:

I think one of the reasons could be that when hollowing more complex geometry errors often occur, such as when hollowing a cylinder using a thinner one to create a pipe of some kind.

---

What the Snarkpitters listen to!

No sorry I meant for the very bare bones part of mapping. Like when you start and use nodraw. Like for example what ever you start with say a rectangle or a cube (there really isn't much choice) then they would use the hollow tool :biggrin:

---

Just Kidding

Just Kidding

I guess some feel they have greater control when doing it manually, and that it doesn't take that much longer.

---

What the Snarkpitters listen to!

Andrei said:
Nah, they're lying. Everyone has to use the hollow tool eventually.

No they don't.

There ain't nothing made by a hollow tool, that can't be built better by hand.

Have I used it? You bet.
Did I regret using it? You bet.
Do I use it any longer? NEVER!

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

that orph he's such a rebel
if for nothing else it comes in handy with the skybox

I use it sometimes, when skyboxing a testlevel. The problem with hollowing is that it's generally only really safe when doing so on cubes. And the problem with that is that you easily end up with very square-looking and feeling maps.

Doing stuff by hand gives more control, and isn't even that much more time-consuming, especially considering the (hopefully) better results. It helps to know a few tricks here, like cloning brushes by holding the Shift key when moving them, and flipping brushes with Ctrl+I and Ctrl+J.

---

Create-ivity - a game development blog

Captain P said:
It helps to know a few tricks here, like cloning brushes by holding the Shift key when moving them, and flipping brushes with Ctrl+I and Ctrl+J.

You mean, CTRL M, right?

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

i think he meant Ctrl+I and Ctrl+L, sometimes Ctrl+M rotate function converts your nice and valid solid into a invalid, impossible to compile, error maker solid, at least in VHE.

hey by the way, are you talking about hammer 1 or 2 or both?

asterix_vader said:
i think he meant Ctrl+I and Ctrl+L, sometimes Ctrl+M rotate function converts your nice and valid solid into a invalid, impossible to compile, error maker solid, at least in VHE.

Actually I meant CTRL M

Cappy was talking about rotating a 6 sided solid, not a 25. :heee:
No, seriously, I meant CTRL M.. It will rotate that thing every which-a-way you want.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Well I'm sorry but I simply fail to see the advantage of manual cube building. I'm not at the level you guys are at, but I simply can't see any other way to go about mapping other than making box rooms and then populating them Look at my last map if you will, this is just four glorified box rooms. I've even checked out the Valve example maps countless times and still can't come up with anything other than the simple box room

---

Just Kidding

Just Kidding

Well, you should read some of these, maybe you can get some ideas about how to make pretty boxes, and other stuff than just boxes.

You should try playing around with 45deg angles too.

---

Boo f**king Hoo

Flynn said:
Well I'm sorry but I simply fail to see the advantage of manual cube building.

Its not really a question of building cubes. Its a question of building habits. In this case, good habits.

You see, once you justify a bad habit, in this case, a very small bad habit, you will gradually advance to more destructive ones. Eventually you end up saying, "I'll just carve this here and make a few thousand tiny pieces. So what if the r_speeds go up to 2000. My PC can deal.

We are not telling you how, but why its advisable. You are in charge of your own map. Do as you wish.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Yes but cubes are very easy on optimsation.

---

Just Kidding

Just Kidding

It seriously is in your best interests to develop as a mapper building
wall by wall and ceiling by ceiling. The most notable example here on
the Snarkpit of why it's important, and how it helps to break out of
"box room" style mapping, is here:

http://www.snarkpit.net/editing.php?page=tutorials&game=HL&id=10

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Natus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Well, you should read some of these, maybe you can get some ideas about how to make pretty boxes, and other stuff than just boxes.

You should try playing around with 45deg angles too.</DIV></DIV>

Oh btw, I peeped that and it was all multiplayer O.M.G. Gwil that's for Half-Life 1! I can't possibly read that :razz: j/k

---

Just Kidding

Just Kidding

Every once in a while you need a few brushes that are at 90? from each other and you haven't got similar ones in the correct plane yet. Using the key combinations will give you that fast, but if you can't directly tell "that one needs -90? around the X axis" yet, then it's ok to hollow out a brush and adjust it to your needs. the only thing you need to remember about it is that you ungroup the hollow out brush before making adjustments to the seperate brushes. Well you can also shift drag the original and make fast adjustments in the correct views.. just remember to ungroup if you choose the former. and we trust you will not advance to evil habits :wink:

---

These words are my diaries screaming out loud

No Orph, I meant Ctrl+L, not M. I hardly ever use that tool, as I've set brush rotating with steps of 15 degrees so 90 degree rotations are easy.

Anyway, if you can't get your head around it, no problem. Some things take some time. Just try some different shaped rooms now and then, a few 45 degree corners here, some ceiling height difference there, L-shaped rooms, circular ones, and so on. Of course, some rooms are just cubes and trying out all sorts of shapes doesn't fit everywhere. And of course, there's outside worlds. HL2 should be a good source of inspiration in this regard. :smile:

---

Create-ivity - a game development blog

I use it for skyboxes, yes.

Maybe if you aren't experienced with shift-cloning (ect.), hollowing brushes for rooms can help at first. But as soon as you get used to shift-dragging brushes and a few other shortcuts it becomes simply faster to build walls manually.

It's not because of the walls themselves but because what you do with them later. When building doorways or corridors, for example, or adding additional corners to a building. Then it can become tedious because you can't teach the hollow tool to use different widths for sides of the same room, or build them in a way you can add additional details like trims.

You have to fix all the hollow-tool's mistakes and it ultimately takes longer than building a floor, shift-copying the floor to a ceiling, building a wall and copying the wall 4 times.

It's about speed.

---

Why snark works.

The thng about the hollow tool is the way the sides never seem to know whether to sit on top of the base, or whether to extend down the outside of it. Sorting problems that cropped up from that was enough to put me off using it. No doubt, you'll come up against the same problems and do the same. When you do, you'll find that it isn't a hard move to make. For now though, do what suits you, and enjoy mapping.

---

i eat paint

well said fishman

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Gwil</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>It seriously is in your best interests to develop as a mapper building wall by wall and ceiling by ceiling. The most notable example here on the Snarkpit of why it's important, and how it helps to break out of "box room" style mapping, is here:

http://www.snarkpit.net/editing.php?page=tutorials&game=HL&id=10
</DIV></DIV>

It was all going great guns until this bit:

"Now the middle section of your corridor is done, its time to work on the entrance sections. Hide everything on the map except for one of the end sections and the middle of the corridor you have just made. For this example we will make the end bits serve the purpose of neatening up the brushwork of the corridor for easy transition into the rooms at the ends. That does not mean to say that they need to be rectangular in shape.

Use your clip tool to split the end section?s wall into 3 bits, and the ceiling into 3 also. Now change your grid size to 4, and using the vertex tool create the shape shown below. Note that the floor is not changing, so you can use that as reference to ensure everything is lined up correctly. Once you have one wall made, you can clone it and flip it rather than going through the process of making the second wall."

I guess not having any dimesions to work with just threw me
I'll keep hacking away at it though. Maybe after reading the same bit a dozen times I'll realise something I didn't last time. EDIT: Hey I can't seem to make the brushes line up without altering the shape of them

---

Just Kidding

Just Kidding

Doing stuff by hand gives more control

QFT.

do what suits you, and enjoy mapping.

Also QFT.

Like when you start and use nodraw

Using nodraw on the backfaces of your map provides no benefits, since (unless you have a leak or a giant box around your entire level) only the inside faces make it into the .BSP, everything else gets thrown out in the first few seconds of compiling. Do yourself a favor and make your level less radioactive to look at in Hammer.

---

o

You forgot this one Candyman.

Its a question of building habits. In this case, good habits.

:wink:

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Baron von Snickers said:
Using nodraw on the backfaces of your map provides no benefits, since (unless you have a leak or a giant box around your entire level) only the inside faces make it into the .BSP, everything else gets thrown out in the first few seconds of compiling. Do yourself a favor and make your level less radioactive to look at in Hammer.

O.M.G. yes! That's a good way to discribe the way nodraw l00ks.

---

Just Kidding

Just Kidding

I use hollow alot when I have cubic rooms, and modify them later. I picked up a habit of mitering my corners from my Quake 3 mapping days, so may times I end up going over all the corners in a room and mitering them anyway.

---

Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

Using any of the tools in hammer is personal preference. The only thing that you can ever be criticized on are is poor construction once you have compiled the thing.

Arguing one method is better than an automated tool because you're personally inept when using the tool is a ridiculous argument. If the tool actually caused tremendous heaps of problems when it is used, then it'd be valid, but the hollow tool doesn't do that.

The root cause would still be sloppy mapping, which isn't inherit to any of the tools, since none of them do everything for you. It's all in how the tools are used.

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

i make a cube, and carve out the middle with a sphere.

works ever time.

edit: cept that one time.. when i was also dividing by 0. that was quite a day.

---

the players tried to take the field
the marching band refused to yield

O.M.G. I love you for that reply I want to kiss you every time! :dorky:

---

Just Kidding

Just Kidding

Hollowing is a tool, and should be used probably minimally. When you hand build a map, you'll find that you are less tempted to leave it as a cube. It's not that hollowing is horrible, it's just inefficient the way that it doesn't know whether you want do bring the walls to the floor or not. It's just like cutting a cube, and deleting the center :/ (tis all the hollow tool does).

Hollow has it's uses, but i have to say I've grown against it over time :/.

---

.else /me ~kill you
www.arclan.net

This is the biggest problem I've come across using the hollow tool to make cubes.

Most cubes aren't exact. What you end up with is a cube with two sides thinner, or thicker than the rest and eventually, you make a leak, or worse, you end up with some error and need the assistance of the rest of us to resolve.

If you make a cube, that doesn't really mean it will stay a cube. Most people will stretch one side or more BEFORE they have separated the pieces!!!

Anyway, as Adam said. Its laziness or sloppiness where you are just to inept at using the tool.

Logically, its best to discourage its use, because its easier to scare someone FROM using it, than to TEACH them to use it correctly.

Thats my take on the hollow tool.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Gwil</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>It seriously is in your best interests to develop as a mapper building wall by wall and ceiling by ceiling. The most notable example here on the Snarkpit of why it's important, and how it helps to break out of "box room" style mapping, is here:

http://www.snarkpit.net/editing.php?page=tutorials&game=HL&id=10
</DIV></DIV>

O.M.G. man this tutorial is the greatest!!! TOTALLY AWESOME DUDE!!! I done it I actually done it!!! JUST DON'T MENTION INTERSECTING BRUSHES HERE AND THERE! O.M.G., O.M.G., O.M.G. I want to give everyone a big hug I can only begin to fathom the possibilities!!! I have finally come of age! (At least I think I have, I dunno how to tell for certain ) Basically, I was worrying about stuff that was going to be covered later in the tutorial so there was no need to line up everything at a certain stage if you know what I mean...he used a method that I always forget about :eek: I'ma probably follow that tutorial again twice just to get everything exact.

---

Just Kidding

Just Kidding

Flynn said:
O.M.G. man this tutorial is the greatest!!! TOTALLY AWESOME DUDE!!! .

Oh look. Duncan has another one hooked.

You can send the money to his Swiss account. The details are in his profile under "SO YOU LIKED IT HUH?"

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Glad you enjoyed it Flynn - makes me wish I wrote it :razz: Here's another one, that's on the same subject (kinda)

http://www.snarkpit.net/editing.php?page=tutorials&game=HL&id=93

Awww, comments like that make writing tutorials so worth it :smile: Glad you enjoyed it Flynn!

---

[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

That bunch of tutorials helped me a lot too, when someone posted the links in my first evar map thread. In general the HL1 tutorials section has a lot of stuff relevent to mapping on really any engine with additive BSP. Some stuff, like the triangle terrain tutorials, may not be all that useful for Source, but I think it's damn groovy tbh.

---

o

Baron von Snickers said:
That bunch of tutorials helped me a lot too, when someone posted the links in my first evar map thread. In general the HL1 tutorials section has a lot of stuff relevent to mapping on really any engine with additive BSP. Some stuff, like the triangle terrain tutorials, may not be all that useful for Source, but I think it's damn groovy tbh.

Heh, i remember when i've just gotten hammer and found the cliff/terrain tutorials, it was all i did for mapping, just cliffs and bumpy terrain.

Then i added land mines :biggrin:

I have finally come of age!

Yeah, that'll happen a couple more times. I don't want to ruin it for you, but jut wait until you realize just how useful (and surprisingly easy) displacements are.

I only use the hollow tool when I'm
(a) creating a test map, or
(b)creating a tutorial map.
Otherwise its just a little less easy to make four walls, a floor, and a ceiling, especially since I'd only have to make two brushes, and edit two more. Besides, when I make it myself, I know where things are for sure, there's no doubt in my mind.
Control is the essence of...control.

---

Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying