HOM effect

I read a post on what the Null texture can do -- if it is put on face that faces away from the void (away I think) you get a HOM effect. Since the null texture can save resources, nulling pretty much every face that isn't visible to the player is a good idea (except faces that face the void).

But sometimes, you can get a HOM effect. I know what happens when you look at it --- you get blured vision in the area of the map. But if the player CAN'T see the area where the HOM effect is, can it cause a problem? Can to much of the HOM effect cause a problem as well? (i,e. Compile errors, eats up resources, HL crashes, etc).

Yippie Ki Yay!

No, it's fine to do! :smile:

Any faces touching the void don't actually get rendered so that's why there's no need to null them.

HOM effects caused by a Null texture cause no problems in maps. The only problem would be if it were accidentally placed on a visible face.

Keep in mind that you won't actually save rendered polys on nulled backfaces, but you can save time and resources since the faces also don't need lighting calculations applied. It's a small benefit, but there's no sense wasting patches and compile time (even if only milliseconds) on those faces.

Alrighty --- thanks!

Yippie Ki Yay!

Wow, i was about to ask this question, on what is Null texture used for, thanx guys

/me starts up hammer

The NULL texture only works with MHLT, doesnt it?

wil5on said:
The NULL texture only works with MHLT, doesnt it?

with Zoner's tools too

No, MHLT added it after Zoners 2.5.3, the final version. Only the MHLT and XP-Cagey tools support it.

Ah, so that's why it's included in the zhlt.wad.

ty :smile:

Forceflow said:
Ah, so that's why it's included in the zhlt.wad.

ty :smile:

so does this mean that 2.5.3 does do the null thingy where it doesnt render the nulled faces? and are xp-cageys tools any better than 2.5.3?

seems to me, if your maps don't actually need this fancy smancy stuff, you are all worrying over nothing..

i have many releases, none used nulls, or skip textures, and all are well withing the limits of high framerate map fragging..

learn to map well, stop worrying about how to cheat the system ..

/ 2 cents

Orpheus said:
seems to me, if your maps don't actually need this fancy smancy stuff, you are all worrying over nothing..

i have many releases, none used nulls, or skip textures, and all are well withing the limits of high framerate map fragging..

learn to map well, stop worrying about how to cheat the system ..

/ 2 cents

ahhhh the wise words of orph, but i have 2 questions

1. how does it cheat the system
and
2.how does not using null result in higher frame gaming?

/picks up 2 cents

1. I think Orph meant to say that there are more relevant things a mapper can focus on.

2. Using null doesn't speed up your frame rate at all it just helps make your compile go faster.

NULL is just one of many tweaks you can use to lower rspeeds... sometimes it's not that useful, other times it's VERY useful. When you are trying to do a map that kinda pushes what you might normally do in HL, every little bit of tweakage helps.

my point was basically this, learn to map correctly 1^st, then when you have a project that is pushing the limits... use everything else.

seems to me, if you map sloppy, and look for outside help to lower r_speeds, you are defeating the system.. cheating.

it reminds me of obese people, who order the whole menu.. then add a diet coke to the list.. :rolleyes:

Orph, if using a texture such as null is 'cheating,' I suggest you go talk to John Carmack, for the concept of such a texture has been involved with his engines since Quake III. You're effectively saying "I never used it, so someone who does doesn't know what they're doing."

The strength of the Caulk (null) texture from its original design is that it gives you advanced control over numerous resources, not to mention even entire VIS flows.

When you build an entity that butts up or into a wall, there are certain faces that are never visible. Due to the way entities render, though, these faces are still calculated and assigned patches, lightmaps, etc. Now, it's sloppy design to take the steps CSG takes automatically and take extra control over every face included in the level? We're talking invisible faces, and it's sloppy to try and remove them, rather than leaving a clutter of unused resources? I call that efficient. Null also allows you to hide world faces behind entity brushes, allowing you to create simple geometry capped by more detailed entity geometry (or even models) with no overdrawn faces (more on this in a sec).

Let's say you have a large staircase. Staircases cause obvious problems when left as world brushes. In addition to cutting faces where they intersect, stairs cause numerous extra VIS calculations to be performed. To optimize this, you could make the staircase a giant func_wall or something, but even that wouldn't give total optimization. You also have overdraw under and behind the staircase, and the sides of the stairs can add up very quickly - they will be rendered if any part of this func_wall is visible. On a staircase with just 16 stairs, that's at least 16 extra polys in the scene if it is an efficient split, not counting whatever is behind and under it.

This is where we get to the concept of overdraw. Overdraw is expensive. Ever seen a major slowdown in a particle system or when many sprites overlap? That's overdraw. It's worse when things are transparent, but still can make a notable difference in how quickly two scenes with the same polycount can be rendered.

In the staircase example, then, null comes to the rescue. Null out the sides, bottom, and back of the staircase (any face that is not automatically culled - intersecting faces on a func_wall will be culled/split automatically), as well as the area under and behind the staircase. We now have ourselves a staircase that renders no additional polygons, has minimal overdraw, and looks like a big empty box to VIS. In the process, we've probably saved at least 20 polys in the 16 step example, varying slightly depending on various factors.

Null is not some magic poly-reducing tool that anyone can toss about randomly and have results. It's an advanced tool that for HL use, is still only just beginning to be fully explored. Its proper use shows that someone is willing to take the time and effort to optimize every aspect of their map, making things smoother for them and the every player who will play it. Consider this 'cheating' if you will, but I would have thought you of all people, Orph, would respect someone for working hard at ensuring the best possible, lowest-polycount-possible experience they're capable of making.

I agree totally with your post KFS, but I think the point orph is making is that it's stupid to map in a sloppy way, then try and make up for this with techniques such as using the null texture... These things should be used after a scene has been optimised in the conventional ways. Yes it is better to use null to reduce wpoly than to not use it, but it is better again to start with a lower wpoly scene, then use null or another technique to introduce more detail for the same polycount.

andrew, you know exactly what i meant :razz:

some people, tend to learn things bassackwards.. i on the other hand try desperately to detour this habit.

the texture is most definitely meant to be used, but not as a crutch to poor mapping practices..

if you wanna debate it as otherwise, i cannot stop you, but given we have few professional mappers here.. you are only being deliberately difficult when my point was otherwise crystal clear, and thats something i think you are above doing.

if snarkpit is going to help people learn to map, i for one am going to start them off at square 1, just because you are on a much higher plain, doesn't mean you should be hard on us still struggling.

i acknowledge you as my master in mapping, you have yet to be wise in other areas yet. :/

I do agree that the NULL is usually just a tweak, and that you should usually focus on overall map layout first in terms of rspeeds. However, there are certain things I do because I know the NULL texture will allow me to do them with minimal polies spent.

For example, the windows in Revenant. Since I can NULL the backfaces of everything out there it costs me very few polies to have them, and they add a lot of ambience. I use the NULL texture in a lot of other places on that map, actually, you would be surprised how many ways you can come up with to use it for tweakage.

And while on most maps it's just a tweak, an advanced mapper will take something like the NULL texture into account early on and use it in determining what he can or can't do overall.

btw, I was curious how much I actually "saved" using the NULL texture on that map. So I took the recently finished VS version and replaced all the null textures with {invisible, then compiled with the same settings. The difference? The map with the null texture has, on average, about 50-70 polies less being rendered at any given time. Not a huge tweak, but not insignificant either, especially in areas of the map that have 700+ speeds.

I took a few pairs of screenshots. The "a" ones are without null, the "b" ones are with null:

http://www.cryotank.net/remote/nulltest/

some people, tend to learn things bassackwards.. i on the other hand try desperately to detour this habit.

The concept of the caulk texture is one of the earliest principles to learn in Q3 editing. All I'm saying is that this is more than a simple crutch and for something that leads to more efficient use of resources yet still functions on a very basic level, I don't think this is the type of thing that should be at all discouraged.

you have yet to be wise in other areas yet. :/

And you wonder why people get irritated at you from time to time... :razz:

KungFuSquirrel said:

you have yet to be wise in other areas yet. :/

And you wonder why people get irritated at you from time to time... :razz:

Andrew, with very few instances, i have accorded you the respect you deserve. on the other hand, in many cases you have not returned the favor, that is not to say you have been evil or hateful to me, but you have shown a disdain for some of my replies, that border on elitism.. i remember when the great KFS was just one of us, his maps were only so-so at best, Andrew doesn't seem to recall him as clearly as i do.

this little disagreement we just had was a perfect example, you could have disagreed in such a way as to actually support my post, without totally agreeing with its content, simply because human nature tend to have people learn things easy whenever possibly 1^st.

without mentioning names, which would serve absolutely no good purpose, you know as well as i that there are mappers here at snarkpit who map sloppy... those mappers then back peddle searching endlessly for the fabled cure.. these people were taught to map incorrectly, and it shows in their work.

since i am not above bashing my own maps, i can and often do use them as examples in my replies.. IMO all my maps are substandard, but they all share a commonality, they are basically stable, none exceed the baseline poly counts, and all are done without tweaks.. i do consider how much better they could be if the tweaks were applied, i do NOT discount your words, i only know that they succeeded without using them is all.

and, for the record, i never wonder WHY people get annoyed with me.. but i do wonder why people REPEATEDLY do so.. they are so f**king slow to learn it hurts sometimes... if you fall into the repeated category.. thats not my problem now is it? i do not have to learn how to make you understand me, there are to many members to even attempt to write in such a way, but it is obligatory that you learn how i write, and take it in stride whenever you get annoyed :rolleyes:

if i disrespect you sometimes.. i promise its unintentional.. its going to occur, but the impact can be lessened if you would help make it so.

This looks promising for helping r_speeds in my map. If I could cut them down by around 100 in the main area, I think it would be OK, and I have plenty of func_walls that I can put null on the back of :biggrin: I hope I don't seem like a n00b making up for sloppy mapping - the only reason the r_speds are a bit too high is because everyone told me to put more detail in :biggrin:

scary_jeff said:
This looks promising for helping r_speeds in my map. If I could cut them down by around 100 in the main area, I think it would be OK, and I have plenty of func_walls that I can put null on the back of :biggrin: I hope I don't seem like a n00b making up for sloppy mapping - the only reason the r_speds are a bit too high is because everyone told me to put more detail in :biggrin:

sighs

is that how you read my post jeff?

throws up hands

forget what i said people.. i seem to be on the wrong side once again.

sometimes i wonder, why do i remain.

If it means anything, i understood what you meant :biggrin:
Well this is what i think you mean, make an area with low poly count, add detail, and use the null texture efficiently to reduce the poly count near enough down to what it was normally/ to an acceptable level.

I usually build my entire map out of NULL to begin with, then texture what the player can see. Usually it's easier to find out what the player can see, as opposed to what they cannot.

Good idea hornpipe.

Orph - I was only joking about you thinking I am a n00b. My idea of what you meant is the same as in my first post, and sloth's post

How is the NULL texture a "trick" any more than scaling up textures, avoiding face-splitting, or any other tweak that we use. One thing that the extra polies NULL saves me lets me do, in fact, is to NOT scale up so many textures.

i cannot believe you guys, so intelligent, and as dumb as doorknobs :sad:

there must be 1000 words contained withing this thread, and the smartest ones here cannot see past the word "trick"

the point was not whether to use the damned texture or not.. its there, OBVIOUSLY its intended to be used :rolleyes:

the whole point is, when and WHY to use it.. to use it as a crutch is as stupid as telling someone to get a bigger damned computer.. its stupid.

you guys are so full of tunnel vision its scary.. this thread had nothing to do with the texture, it was almost entirely dedicated to proper mapping practices.. the fact that you can use the texture, should not mean you should rely on it to solve your stupid mapping habits..

either support proper habits, or don't.. but don't blame me cause you cannot follow a thread.. :rolleyes:

Jeez... Orph!! Most people are trying to agree with you!

the fact that you can use the texture, should not mean you should rely on it to solve your stupid mapping habits..

Yes! This is exactly what everybody else is trying to say!

jeff,

sighs

then isn't it obvious to you, that the ones agreeing with me are not the ones i am talking back to?

look at the devisions..
we have basic mappers-on my side.
and highly skilled ones- against me.

the difference is, they are long past basic mapping and see things in a completely different light.. long has it been where basic understanding is essential to quality work.

they have the luxury of skipping to the end of the book, most of us do not.

i get annoyed,then angry when people insist in teaching incorrectly, there is a reason why people should learn to map in the proper steps.. we have living proof right here in several cases where learning to map backward is wrong.

why must those, who are more skilled than i dissect my posts as inconsequential, just because they know more than i.?? they weren't always more skilled than i am now :sad:

I think I see and agree with Orphs point. In mapping, there is so much
to learn its impossible to take it all in all at once, but despite this
there are many newcomers who try. When I began mapping, HINT brushes
and NULL textures were essentially non-existant, and so I didn't worry
about them while I was having enough troubles getting the hang of the
theory behind invalid solids or whatever.

Basically, when you are new to mapping, if you find yourself needing to
use HINT and NULL textures in order to keep things running, you're
skipping ahead and missing out on other areas of level design you
should have picked up first of all - such as mapping efficiently. I'm
not saying this is true all of the time - some people new to mapping
might learn the relatively complex theory behind these tools quickly
and use them well, but most will add to the inevitable confusion of
learning level design and become to rely on them, which isn't really
advisable in people so new to the trade.

As tools they are there to be used, and I would encourage everyone to
learn to use them in time, but they aren't the top priority, and
learning them when inexperienced could prove to be more harmful than
good.

finally, a master mapper who can see past his own.. well you know.

thanx duncan, in spite of the words you wrote "I think I see" you managed to say what i intended to convey.

Basically, when you are new to mapping, if you find yourself needing to use HINT and NULL textures in order to keep things running, you're skipping ahead and missing out on other areas of level design you should have picked up first of all - such as mapping efficiently.

All I'm trying to say is that this is part of mapping efficiently and is treated as one of the most basic concept in other engines. Due to its benefit, I see it as more logical to encourage its use rather than leave people to their own devices learn it incorrectly and use it incorrectly, because there are misconceptions about it out there. Intelligent use of this texture and sloppy mapping do not go hand in hand, but since when does intelligent use of anything and sloppy mapping go hand in hand? I am supporting proper habits, as once again I consider the efficiency gained from using this texture properly to be very beneficial to one's design, but merely acknowledging that not everyone will use it as such... but how is that any different than any other tool? You can't brush off the value of something because some people don't/won't pick up on it.

Anyway, I have no point remaining in this discussion, as with marriage in 3 days and the new job and requested minimal community involvement officially starting in 8 days, I don't have the time to keep bickering back and forth before I disappear, because I imagine it could probably go on that long. :razz:

There is an endless supply of parallel cases in other disciplines. I take badminton, which I am trained to coach, as an example.

There are lots of grips - ways to hold the racket - in badminton. The two basic grips are the forehand and backhand. Another very useful grip is called the "universal" or "multipurpose" grip; this is inbetween a fore- and backhand grip.

• Pictures!

I would never teach a beginner, or even a relatively experienced player, to use a universal grip. Why? Because at that stage of development, he still needs to focus on using the basic grips correctly. If I show him the universal grip, he will probably start using it for all his shots. This is bad.

Whenever you teach, you must remember that learning is a gradual process. It involves revisions along the way. The universal grip is an excellent tool, but only when used correctly. Used as a crutch to avoid changing grip or learning good backhand technique, it will create bad habits that are very difficult to correct.

first off, good luck andrew.. i had a run up to omaha i turned down in favor of a break .. i needed the rest.. woulda been to early to see you off anyways :/

secondly, i see your point, but still disagree with it on principal.. its been so long since you were a n00b, you forgot how it is.. a very large percentage would abuse the system if the "magical" null texture was mentioned in any significant way.. learning to map must be taught from beginning to ending.. and my personally view doesn't include the null texture till possibly the 3rd real map (assuming you are the sort to release maps ever so often) for a better reference i suppose.. at the stage you could have, or should have released a 3rd map..

what i am saying is, i agree with you on its usage, i differ on when to begin on doing so.

as a comparison, i hesitate to offer custom textures to a new mapper... they tend to use them to create the map, when it should be the mappers job to do it.. i know i explained that poorly, but i feel a new mapper should learn to map with the default textures.. it teaches much better habits..

lastly.. i think gollum agreed with me.. if so thanx, if not still thanx..

Another usefull note:

Would it justified to use the null texture when say, someone has been doing quite complex architecture, and wants to get the r_speeds down, say by 2-300, I think thta i found that this is the point of the null texture.

Once learned the basics and have improved upon them, then learn the tricks

I agree with you then, that people should learn from the start, and build their way up. A new mapper should learn the basics, and learn more advanced things as he goes along. Gollum agrees with this, giving an example of another situation where this is the rule.

KFS is not disagreeing with this. He also thinks mappers should start with the basics, but the difference is that he thinks the null texture is one of the basics. You have to admit, we in HL only just got the null texture - how would things be if we had all had it from the start?

I think an OK example is learning the guitar. I personally think that people learning should start off learning chords, and chord changes, then bar chords, and only when they are fairly good at all that should they start trying to learn riffs and melodies. Other people would say that you need to learn scales and simple melodies from the start, then add in chords that follow from the learned scales. I would disagree with this for a number of reasons, but really, who is right? Both think they are getting people to start on something easy.

So basically its a, don't jump in the deep end sorta "rule"

$loth said:
So basically its a, don't jump in the deep end sorta "rule"

i think everyone agrees not to jump into the deep end first. the debate seems to hinge on peoples opinions as to whether the null texture should be seen as one of the 'deep end' tools.

now that i know what the null texture does, it gets used where appropriate during the building proccess, not as a last-minute effort to get r's down. that's what i use the hint texture for. :rolleyes:

It's a good thing that I'm not required to give Half-Life map coaching :biggrin: Doubtless my idea of "basic" would be controversial! However, I wouldn't discourage people from using the null texture per se (dammit, I promised not to use Latin today). Rather, I would warn them that it is only a relatively minor tweak, that will improve their map but must not be relied upon to control polygon counts.

Badminton is a little clearer, despite healthy fine-grain disagreements between coaches. If I started coaching the universal grip to beginners, the BAofE would slap me into next week :heee:

WARNING: derailment alert!!!

i used this grip, just this morning the blue towel? nah, the wife hates the added wash :rolleyes: