unable to finish maps :|

i am somehow unable to finish my maps, everytime im about 80% done and
the map only needs the last detailing work, i get a better idea for a
new map, i dont know why im telling you guys this, but its truly
annoying

Yes I know what you mean!
Take a look at my profile to see like 3 maps that are not finished due to lazyness.

I know what you mean.

I just get sick of looking at the same brushes in Hammer. I guess
the best thing to do is just try to get the map done as quick as
possible, before you lose enthusiasm. I think it may have
something to do with the fact that in the beginning there's so much
potential, and any work you do yields big impressive results. As
the map comes down to minor tweaking and polish... it's harder to
continue.

So delete the bits you don't like, and replace them with the best bits out of your other new maps?

I have the same problem, unable to finish maps...SO ANNOYING !!!

I had that! Now Serenity is done! Nice time for me to advertise my website too!

http://www.jamesdeth.co.uk

Latest map file is here though: http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92001

Also just stick at it, I did that. It pays off and you get something in the end of it :smile:

I have the same problem, oh well. Whatever. Yeah.

i hav ethis problem too. Risht now i have 3 incomplete maps. It helps when you get bored to go to another map, then when you get bored with that map go to teh first map again, and its an endless cycle.

I had this problem. Then I pretty much stopped mapping.

don't start out with the idea that you're making a map. think of it more like making areas or places or things that might be nice to have as part of a map. you wont get so distracted with thoughts of a bigger picture that way. once its nice and polished, put it away and forget about it.

I agree to some extent. Most of my urges to map come from trying
to build a particular building, or area... or test out a particular
entity. However, if all you do is create little polished "test
maps" wont that stop you from ever creating something with a good and
cohesive layout?

no, but it'd leave you better placed to do justice to any decent layout that you might come up with later.

I get the same problem with most maps... I tend to find I end out remaking them about 2 years later from starting lol... I find if I have a really good unique texture set it helps me to finish it too- alot more style in it :razz:

BTW Nice website thursday-

Not ever really had a problem finishing maps before because i like the
satisfying feeling of finishing 1 and getting it out there.

The point by fishy is an interesting
1. With my current map (cs_bullettheory), I am sorta building it that
way. i've created about 5 seperate rooms/sections for the map and I am
only now focusing on how they will all connect together and Ive not had
as much enjoyment from making a map in ages.

The thing that always annoyed me in the past was having to do the
niggly little details and tidying near the end of the maps development.
By creating smaller seperate sections, I only have to focus on doing
the niggly stuff in that small area and it becomes enjoyable rather
than a chore.

right now, my problem is motivation. its my busy time of year for my job so i am always on a run, or home sleepy from the last one.

however, of all my HL1 maps, finishing them was no issue because none of my maps have a theme and adding/subtracting things didn't harm the outcome.

if you are having trouble finishing a map, chose a non-themed design and see if you can complete one.

after that, you will either decide to continue with the non-design method, or you may even have gotten over the hump and can finish one of your others. :smile:

so maybe i should have a break with the current map and try to finish some of the other maps?

that sounds ok, but right now i have to kill the ant thats walking around on my keyboard

Its hard m8. I actually got quite depressed about it at one stage, tbh
in the end I just gave up mapping altogether, some of us just arnt
built for it.

gasp :O

What's hard for me is figuring out what to make. I sometimes make a
room and panic, not knowing what to do next. Believe me, lack of
inspiration is horrible ! :sad:

Do any mappers out there sit down and draw out and design their entire
maps before they start working on it? Or do most people just come
up with an idea for a specific part of a map and then expand on it?

I've never drawn out an entire map before, although I have drawn out some ideas for a major or important section.

sorry double post.

i made a concept a few days ago, didnt start on it yet though, some
kind of c17 street map, a bit like overwatch but with more underground
and indoor stuff, and combine stuff

I never make any concept art and seldom use photographs or pictures of things when mapping; I do it from the head.

i just get inspired from something i see when im out and then go back and make it sp i find it really hard to make a full map i started one a week ago but now i just cant be bothered with it at the time i thought it was great but now i just think its crap

I usually get ideas from the World around us.
I have had some good ideas but from experience, I have never fully implemented these ideas because I know in heart that I will end up giving up on them due to lazyness and not enough enthusiasm.

I've had problems like that. I will start a map, then spend a year adding finishing toutches. I think that if I'm working on a map that I want to be good, it is hard to let it go. I think the hardest part is when to say enough is enough and release it.

I agree.

I've only finished 2 maps in my entire "mapping career" (if you want to
call it that). And those releases were because of deadlines. Maps are
never really finished. You just choose a time, package it up, and stop.
But it's also important not to pressure yourself too much - mapping is
a hobby, you should be enjoying yourself.

I've had problems like that. I will start a map, then spend a year adding finishing toutches. I think that if I'm working on a map that I want to be good, it is hard to let it go. I think the hardest part is when to say enough is enough and release it.

To be honest, this is due to lousy planning. If you don't think anything out it becomes very obscure and almost impossible to create anything decent.

Even having a simple list will help, but if you want to look at it more closely:

There's an apparent cycle in almost all hobbies that have this type of process, or any development for that matter; what's important in EVERY development is working the idea to death in the earliest stage to limit the actual creation time (and to make your ideas concrete). Granted, this is a "professional" point of view, but it should help in almost guaranteeing completion of a decent map(novel/screenplay/program/etc).

I'd suggest looking at the development cycle for software development (taking that it's the closest relating cycle I can think of, it's more adaptable to mapping then anything else) I don't suggest looking at it from an architectural standpoint because that process is ridiculously long and it honestly isn't needed when doing this. However, you'd be able to create something amazing doing it this way.

The cycle is fairly simple:
Requirements
Specifications
Coding
Testing
Maintenance

That for mapping can be translated to:
Requirements (Outline)
Specifications (Layout/Design)
Map
Test
Maintenance

There are certain versions of the cycle in which the mapping and testing are inter-mingled until there's final testing, which you would call beta-testing (after doing an initial alpha on your own, of course)

More Clarification (stop reading if you don't care):

Create an outline of the rough ideas you have for your map, in words. Like themes you want throughout the map (i.e. rounded corners, space station, rusty metal, etc.) Some other outlines you'll want to make is layout (connectivity) and game-play style (i.e. vertical) and then think of situations that it would play well in. Another thing you may want to start planning here are entities and interactivity.

Take the outline you created and start drawing out "rooms". Paper is a good choice for this stage, nothing super detailed of course, but a very nice guide. By the time you finish this step you'll end up having the entire conceptualization for your map (until you come up with something new.)

Map like crazy. Just start out by creating, in your editor, what you've created on paper and in your head. Then start going through and adding more detail to each "room". You'll probably come up with more ideas here, whatever you change here go and make changes in the requirements step and make a note of it in the specifications. That way, when you pick the map up again in four months you'll know what the hell you were thinking.

This is the final testing (seeing how something looks in game is part of the mapping stage), which of course, is best done on servers.

I think you can figure out the rest.

But, if you really think about it, this same process is used for most things, at least professionally. (Writing a novel usually follows this type of process. Obviously, planning software follows it, but it is more strict.)

Sorry for the drawn out post. I hope it helps though.

Using software development cycles for mapping does not work very well in my experience. When I do this my maps turn out bland and I get bored and unhappy with the map quickly. I think this is because mapping is an creative/artistic process which is more akin to painting or writing than software development or analytic problem solving. I have found that the best strategy is the following:

1: Get an idea - through random insight, or pictures, or brainstorming, or whatever.

2: Start mapping one area, and really delve in to find out the style you want.

3: One idea will lead to another, and as that happens just go with it and make new areas. Don't worry about how it will all fit together, just concentrate on getting the ideas from your head into the map.

4: Once you have a decent amount of stuff made, take a step back and objectively look at the map as a whole. Is the gameplay flow right? Do the areas go well with each other? Come up with a plan for putting it all together.

5: Implement the plan you came up with in (4). This will probably involve massive remaking, editing, and moving stuff around. Don't be afraid though, usually making stuff a second time is a lot easier than the first and on the whole I think its better than trying to be perfect the first time. If you think about the time you spend mapping, only a small proportion of it is actually laying down brushes - most of it is thinking of what you are going to do and getting ideas, and you have already done this with steps 1-4.

--Your map will now be in alpha stage--

6: Bug Test. Run around your map and take screenshots of everything that is bad. Fix. Recompile. Repeat.

--Your map will now be in beta stage--

7: Post on forums for critiques. Fix. Recompile. Repeat.

8: Play test. Fix layout even if it means massive remaking/moving stuff around.

9: Fix new bugs you made. Goto 7.

10: Release the map!

Some people will swear by the planning method of drawing everything out and planning everything before placing a single brush. To me that is equivalent to an artist saying "ok, I'm going make a painting of a house, and in the background there will be a mountain, and in the window there will be a flowerpot, and the lighting will be smooth, and the roof will slope at an angle of 20 degrees..." before even picking up the paintbrush. And you know what, the painter might paint all of that perfectly to spec, but in the end his painting will be dull.

The Cassius Mapping System

1. Create a badass texture, preferably by accident, preferably a terrain texture.

2. Open up Worldcraft. This is tricky.

3. Make some awesome-looking, low-poly terrain.

4. Go to sleep.

5. Wake up the next day.

6. Look at your work with disgust.

7. Delete map file.

8. Open up Photoshop and start trying to make a badass texture.

9. Repeat.

mazemaster said:
5: Implement the plan you came up with in (4). This will probably involve massive remaking, editing, and moving stuff around. Don't be afraid though, usually making stuff a second time is a lot easier than the first and on the whole I think its better than trying to be perfect the first time. If you think about the time you spend mapping, only a small proportion of it is actually laying down brushes - most of it is thinking of what you are going to do and getting ideas, and you have already done this with steps 1-4.

I think this is the key step- if you've got some funky areas built, then you've got to be willing to sort out the layout or design of the rest of the level- even if it means deleting it all...

success can be measured in only one way. sadly.

success is the amount of times a map is played.

of course, most of us truly do not believe this and measure our success based on our own popularity within our group community, but in the back of our minds we do think about it being played frequently.

another sad note is, the proof is in the pudding so to speak. the killbox is the most played map type out there per capita, so all the planning and drafting and scrapping and rebuilding in the world is NOT going to change the simple fact.. PLAYERS ARE BASICALLY STUPID!

that said, this is my take on the subject. you can think you have the most awesome map ever but if you do not get reliable feedback, you will almost always miss the mark. IMO, reliable feedback is the most crucial part of any maps creation. you can be the most imaginative person in the world, but you will still miss things. conversely, you can be the most nitpickin perfectionist in the world and still be just as blind as anyone.

feedback is the key to success.. use it in EVERY STEP of your maps creation. do NOT wait until you have a beta, do not wait till you have things set in STONE.. get it from day one and you are guaranteed a map that will succeed. if you wait to long, you are more apt to disregard some advice in favor of saving time, or WORSE, you will scrap a map because someone pointed out belatedly that you messed up horribly, and in your disgust scrap it.

FEEDBACK.. the most important part of your map.

hmm

maybe youre right orph, the first map i made went pretty well, and me
and Sluip (the dude from IRC) was testing it all the time, and we had
plenty of fun blowing ourselves up with barrels and shooting cannisters
at people.

NatUS said:
hmm
maybe youre right orph,

slaps forehead

silly me, i usually don't know anything..

of course I'm right butthole. i would not have typed it if i weren't :razz:

the hardest thing about being right is, sometimes there is more than one right, and its very hard to convince people that there is.

the worst thing ever, is when two people who both think that theyre
right start yelling at each other like "im right and youre wrong!!!"
"NO, im right and YOU are wrong!!!"

Yar.

I'm more inclined to agree with Crono then Mazemaster on this
one. Even though I'm not the most experienced mapper, and haven't
released a complete map, learning from the projects I've started and
abandoned... I've come to the conclusion that while it may be nice to
have a really well fleshed out area, if you only put all your energy
into one section it will be hard to keep it up and see a project to
completion. I do a lot of drawing, and it just makes sense to do
rough sketches in the beginning before working for more and more
detail. While this delays gratification (you won't have
impressive screenshots to share right away) I think in the end you'll
have something that plays better.

The only hard thing about Crono's method of sketching things out on
paper is that I have a difficult time sketching out a three dimensional
environment. Especially along the Z-axis.

I agree with you Orpheus. I think feedback, early and often, can
be the real impetus behind a map. I can't wait for this summer
when I can start creating and sharing.

Use graph paper and a ruler and possibly some perspective. All are very easy.

Maze, you may not realize it, but when you're painting, writing, etc (as you mentioned) you are following that process, you just do it implicitly, it's the first logical thing you think of ... that is, if you're professional about it. (Ever wonder why it takes amature artists to take so long to complete things?)

Now, I'm not saying time is the ultimate factor or anything, but that's the reason why most people don't finish things they start: too much time has passed. But, I barely outlined the cycle. Those are the highest level steps. If you look at the cycle for you self, I'm sure you'd agree. (Less work)
The main difference from what you said is that you're waiting until you're basically done with the map to make flow changes ... which means you'll most likely have to scrap the entire thing and start over with a better idea of what you want. The development cycle takes care of that in the very beginning (basically because it's the most important step).

If you were wondering, most painters do that. They usually take photographs and "appropriate" them to their painting (they draw rough sketches before that too, in the end there's three "pieces of art"). It's the most efficient way and it already takes somewhere around 30 hours to complete a painting like that, it would take years other ways. Does this "destroy" the artist's experience with the painting? No. Why? Because it's still their creation, the only difference is they're not doing it on the spur of the moment.

Writing is the same way. In several aspects so is mapping.

But, look, I just gave an almost guaranteed method to ensure a map is completed, I'm not telling anyone to adopt it ...

I have a s**tload of maps that i have not finished. I have the same load of ideas that are small enough to be prefabs. The problem with taking them all and malkeing one good map is that all my maps are of different themes, I have a medieval castle, a rundown wharf, a ravenholm-town-thing, a LOTR palace, and one of those high-tech pointless-arena things with lots of laserbeams and plasma balls. not a good mix.

heh, nickelplate make a scifi castle in the space with lasers and tall towers, and then put in some ball genarators.

there you go, a super mixed map

Except for some people, like the one from Wichita Kansas who releases all the maps they create, good/bad, most of us have far more maps unreleased than released. :rolleyes:

you guys are describing "Life as a mapper".. get used to it.

personally, i think if its not total s**t, it should be released only to get people to understand general mapping as a whole. you may feel its s**t, but someone else may find inspiration in it, so some good comes out of your s**t.

release your maps with the understanding that it is not perfect and you will sleep better. if for some reason you are under the illusion that you will only release perfect maps, i have news for you, "THEY DO NOT EXIST" i can find a defect in any map made.. and i am sure others can as well.

do your best, thats all you can do, and ENJOY.. its supposed to be fun, not work.

another really annoying thing is when people who dont know anything
about mapping, says that youre a noob because the full compile process
is taking so long :/

Use graph paper and a ruler and possibly some perspective. All are very easy.

See thats the main difference between our styles. You do planning on paper, whereas I do planning in the editor. In the end it amounts to the same thing, except I have some stuff ready to work with and move around, whereas you just have a bunch of drawings.

Furthermore, there is a creativity you feel when you are working in 3D that you don't get in drawings, and that should not be understated. As any mapper knows, the process of actuallly building gives you lots of ideas. If you plan everything on paper, you lose that creative step by forcing yourself into a pattern before you have started making things. In the software development world you would call this premature optimization.

If you are constructing a building in real-life, you had better plan it out on paper first, because the costs of rebuilding are huge. If you are creating a complex peice of software, the fundamental algorithms and design had better be correct before you start, again because the costs of rebuilding are huge - if your program is written using the wrong algorithms or data structures, fixing it could require rewriting everything, and you will not have gained much insight into the program by doing it the wrong way first.

On the other hand, in mapping the cost of remaking stuff is quite small once you have mastered the editor. Its like a sketchpad, except in 3D, and the editor takes care of all the little problems like perspective, aligning lines, and copying things. In my experience, remapping often takes less time than redrawing. You just change around the brushes, simple as that.

Now, I'm not saying time is the ultimate factor or anything, but that's the reason why most people don't finish things they start: too much time has passed.

The amount of time that has passed rarely has anything to do with why people don't finish maps. The reason why people don't finish maps is because they get mappers block and get bored with the map, plain and simple. And (in my experience) using a software development cycle tends to cause mappers block and boredom.

The main difference from what you said is that you're waiting until you're basically done with the map to make flow changes ... which means you'll most likely have to scrap the entire thing and start over with a better idea of what you want. The development cycle takes care of that in the very beginning (basically because it's the most important step).

Ah ha, see thats the misconception. Once you have most of your ideas fleshed out, then map is not basically done. That is just the end of the planning stage, albeit a different sort of planning stage. If you start thinking about the map as "done" just because you have made a lot of stuff, then you have the wrong mindset.

crono is a sad person with a sad personality.

What happens when you have to scrap an entire area because it just
isn't fitting with the layout and you've decided its extraneous?
Is that hard for you to do? While I agree you can get more
creative if you start laying down and fleshing out ideas right away, I
feel that in the end if you have a well thought out and designed layout
before you get to mapping you're bound to be more successful.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting NatUS</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>crono is a sad person with a sad personality.
</DIV></DIV>

You are generalizing. You have not been here long enough to sound so certain.

I find Crono a lot less irritating than most because I desire to see past the facade he puts forth for everyone to see.

Now I am only judging by your membership number here, but I do not feel you have been here long enough yet to comment so... assuredly.

Pay attention to the interaction between Maze and Crono.. you may learn something.

Addicted to Morphine said:
What happens when you have to scrap an entire area because it just isn't fitting with the layout and you've decided its extraneous?

I never scrap what I have worked so hard to attain. I may retexture it to suit, or add some detail to "MAKE" it fit, but after its been built, it remains.

You can change the entire map with a few choice textures. IMO, most maps suffer from poor textures, not poor architecture.

okok, im taking it back then...sowy cwono xD

i made a concept drawing twice, the first time it turned out to be a
lot smaller than i thought it would be (note: i suck at drawing), the
second time the concept looked pretty good, it still does, but after i
made about 8% of the map, i changed the theme, and now im working on
some kind of combine construction site thing with thumpers and half
constructed combine structures, and it looks pretty ok at the time.

The only time I scrap things aren't because they don't look "right" but
because they don't play well. With my map "rushdown" I realized
that the laser control button was just too easy to defend, and I also
realized I had to reconstruct a third of my map to come up with a more
balanced location. It was frustrating, and to be honest that's
why I just abandoned the map. If only I had thought the placement
through beforehand, I may have been able to foresee the layout problems.

I know this absolutely, 100% off topic, but because I haven't been here in a month, I'd just like to say,

"Hi everybody!"

G.Ballblue said:
I know this absolutely, 100% off topic, but because I haven't been here in a month, I'd just like to say,

"Hi everybody!"

looks at date

FUCHE.. i lost..

i bet you wouldn't return till may 23rd..

who picked april 25th anyways?