What is the internet comming to?

Im torn between posting this and not posting it, but this subject put me in a funky mood, just read on:

Today I found out from some friends that a class mate of mine (from
High School) had killed himself today. We both never really cared for
each other, but it is strange to think that this fellow killed himself,
like he couldn't take life anymore. How could things be this bad? But
that isn't why im poting this thread. The story contunues, basicaly the
mother found her son down by the river hanging from a rope attatched to
a tree branch (need I go into more detail). But what gets me is that in
his computer there was a web page opened that explained on how to tie
the knot that would kill you. Why in the world would a site like this
exist? What is the internet comming to? Any thoughts/vents?

If this is a politicaly incorrect thread then delete it, but im curious as to everyone's thoughts on it.

---

Posting And You

That's terrible.

However, I think "extreme video" sites are far worse. Ones that show videos of people killing others, or themselves. Amongst so many other things.

However, I've wondered how to actually tie a nuice, for Halloween. I got close last year, it looked pretty decent on the dummy.

But, The Internet has had this type of content for a very long time. Apparently, it used to be more common to see pages about how to create explosives and such.

I think, it's actually gotten harder to find accurate information like this, simply because the volume of data has basically been white washed out. You'll most likely find pages that are pure "fiction".

But, As for high school students killing themselves ... what the hell? In high school, you literally have no idea what the rest of your life would be like. I think, honestly, it stems from parents lack in ability to talk to their kids about what they're feeling and how to deal with some emotions. A very important one is rejection and being hurt by someone you care about. It's something hard to talk about, but it could save the son/daughter's life.

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Crono - It's easiest to give advice on something you haven't experienced (my apologies if you have). No offense to you, of course - you know I respect you. It's just that the reality of such scenarios is more complex than the concept of them.

I'm sorry to hear that, Omega. I really doubt, though, that he would not have committed suicide had the website not existed.

He didnt kill himself because a website told him to. The fact there are many websites with instructions on how to kill yourself, build bombs etc. doesnt mean you turn suicidal or into a terrorist by reading them. Cassius is correct on this.

---

"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"

• My yr11 Economics teacher

Im not saying that the website was the cause. Im asking why are there
things like this on the internet? Why are they freely accesible? And
why isnt anyone doing anything to take that S*** off the inetrnet? What
is a 5 year old suppost to think when he comes across a site like this?
(and they do) Call me sheltered, call me ignorant, but I just can't
accept that the world we live in is this F***ed up!!!

---

Posting And You

No one is taking this stuff off the net because no one cares. The kid
who died wasn't politically connected, and he didn't know any "good"
lawyers either. The only ways to get any site on the net shut down seem
to be

1)RIAA/MPAA screwing around

2)"Terrorist" activity against the USA/NATO countries

3)Massive public outcry (US/Canada and parts of europe)

All of which basically come down to having bucketloads of money to throw around.

Personally, I want no part of the internet to be regulated by a central
body. I don't trust other people who make decisions on what is right
and wrong for me to read. The internet is supposed to be anarchy.

tbh, i think if i wanted to kill myself, i wouldn't need to google for a tut. the fact that i could find one if i did try doesn't surprise me. after all, the internet has been put together by people, and we all know how f**ked-up they can be.

---

i eat paint

I'm going to make a webpage about how to get onto the roof of a tall building and then jump off.

If you want to you can kill yourself with virtually everything. And it is impossible to shut down internet sites dealing with virtually everything.

Such sites exist because they are not supposed to help with suicide. They are just about information.

I know it's shocking to hear about a suicide especially when you knew the vicitim. And it's perfectly normal to search for an explanation. But the only reason is: because he wantet to. Even if he was young and didn't know what his life would be like one cannot redo this. Although we don't understand; and I don't even know him I try to respect his wish. Because it surely wasn't an easy made decision. I hope he's happy where ever he might be.

---

Never try to be perfect - just try it and make the best out of it

i wonder how many people have jumped off bridges, only to change their minds once the cold water hits them, and then drown trying to swim back to safety.

i found a guy at work one morning, face down in a pool of blood in toilet cubicle, with his hands stuffed in his back pockets. it seems he lined himself up with the toilet pan, stuffed his hands in his pockets to stop his instincts from saving him, and fell forwards. i was relieved that he managed to miss the pan by a few inches, because the mess he made was bad enough. he survived, and was all the uglier for his troubles.

---

i eat paint

Anarchy is great since there is basically no built-in way to stop anyone from doing anything. It is ultimate freedom. The downside of that is in the real world people could go around killing you, stealing your stuff, etc, which would suck.

Luckily on the internet the extent of anarchy is information, and information can't actually do physical harm - it can't kidnap your children or burn down your house.

---

http://maze5.net

Crapceeper said:
If you want to you can kill yourself with virtually everything.

I know you can do it with a spoon, but it's really painful (you can like stick it in your eyeball with all your strength). I think jumping from a building is much cooler.

The fact there are many websites

Hah, that's one of my favourite Maddox pages :biggrin: :biggrin:

(wonder what ever happened to MAM?)

One of the wonderful aspect about the internet is that it has
information on everything. It's relatively non-censored, and
that's what makes it so amazing and useful.

If someone wanted to kill himself, he would have done it regardless of
the internet. There are so many ways to kill oneself.

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

Crono - It's easiest to give advice on something you haven't experienced (my apologies if you have). No offense to you, of course - you know I respect you. It's just that the reality of such scenarios is more complex than the concept of them.
I'm sorry to hear that, Omega. I really doubt, though, that he would not have committed suicide had the website not existed.

Yes, it is easily to give advise from a 'objective' view point. I know how much something could hurt, or how you could feel to contemplate something like this, and yes in which point, a website will not sway your view. It's the same as violent video games, did the game make the player go out and kill someone? No, of course not. It was their line of judgement, their perception of their personal world (their day to day life, how they're treated, so on and so forth). But. Honestly, it really does go back to parenting, while it may not be as easy as I explained, because of whatever factor (no parents, unwillingness to speak with them, or even because the parents are more screwed up themselves). It is still a very large factor, I think.

I believe they just did a study, I'm not sure how accurate it is, but it makes sense. It was something along the lines that, if parents were supportive and friendly with their children when they were in Kindergarten (around 5 years old) then, when they went into adolescence, they were more likely to confide in their parents, in which case, the parents would know where they are, and be sure that they can trust them and not be afraid of whatever mistake might be made, whatever that may be.
Because, most problems really do stem from the parent's lack of ability to communicate with their child. I guess I was just lucky that I developed anti-peer-pressure abilities, or something. Because it really wasn't until recently that I've been able to talk to my parents, and I've realized why: they and their parents have had terrible lives.

It would make everything much simpler if people, whoever they may be, learned to deal, healthily, with their emotions. Because then, something that happened to your grandmother when she was 17 wouldn't effect you until you're 23 or something like that. (Just a scenario).

But, no, I've never contemplated suicide, it's never sat right with me. I don't know why, honestly, I've had plenty of reasons. But, I know that what I've said doesn't do anything for the individuals who're already in the situation. It's much easier to change yourself and make yourself better for the sake of the rest in your family line. But, I know some might see that as a little optimistic, but it's by no means far fetched :smile:

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

first- as to the Internet site:

Your example is part of what makes the Internet such a powerfull
tool. It is a network of much of the human race and a collage
(sp?) of our shared human consciousness. Regulating that
information is either seen as a safety issue ("some people can't make
good choices on their own or are easily influenced"), or a control
issue ("if other people new about this/how to do that we would be in
trouble").

Free information and the power of the individual to access and use that
information is indeed a great power. And perhaps the human race
isn't ready for that. But I think a better solution to censorship
would be to alter our education system and look at things as "our
people have access to a great deal of information and we must educate
and train them on how to process and use that information possitively
and effectively.

Perhaps then, your class mate would have done more like I did and
read about other depressed/different people, found out how to deal with
his depression and found others who he could relate to (either in RL or
online). The Internet has allowed the creation of communities of
people who could never imagine linking up in the real world.

As for the suicide itself:

As a spiritual person and a person who has suffered cronic depression
all his life. I feel happy for your classmate. My worst
fear when thinking of suicide is the chance of having to deal with a
failed attempt afterwards (which many people do have to live
with). He made a decision, thought carefully about his actions,
made sure he was doing it right, and acted through.

While an early death is sad, sometimes a long life is worse.

Btw, the article on Maddox' site is just for fun. Someone who cannot distinguish that from real tips ...

---

:: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer

You know why our world is so screwed up?
Nobody is taking responsibility for thier actions.
"There will come a time when men will not put up with sound doctrine, instead they will gather about them teachers to tell them what thier itching ears want to hear."

Look at how many people in the other thread or other people in general if you ask them said "I have my own religion, I don't like the idea of a higher being ruling my life, I beleive that as long as I'm a basically good person, I will be okay." or "I don't like all the rules so I have my own religion."
Nobody wants to answer for thier actions.
Women can now LEGALLY have an abortion in the third trimester all the way until the DAY BEFORE the natural birth of the baby.
People are having casual sex without learning eachother's names and thier children are being born into broken homes with 16-year-old mothers who are not ready for such responsiblity.
Along with the "tolerance" our society preaches has come a myriad of things like this that will eventually tear us apart.
We live in a wicked and depraved generation, Omegaslayer, moreso than any other time. There's no way to fix it, because even now people who are readig this will disregard it as the rantings of some "conservative hatemonger" and some will even attack what I have said, but I stand by it: It's a lack of God in our society that will bring much more pain before the end.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

agreed.

---

Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

I agree with your first paragraph, Nickel. The rest, while it follows from that, I can't agree with for the most part.

Everyone has their own religion, based on their own interpretation of whatever religious teaching theyve had. I'm atheist, I beleive theres noone to "answer to" after I die, what difference does that make?

Is there anything really wrong with abortions? Kids being born to 16 year old mothers probably stems from them deciding not to have abortions. Probably a result of parental ineptitude... but I'm generalising. There is nothing "wrong" with casual sex in itself.

You cant say our generation is worse than any other. It sounds like youre just being nostalgic for the past. Every generation had abortions, casual sex, godlessness, and this one is no different.

You say a lack of god will be the downfall of human society. I dont have the eloquence to describe how I feel about that statement, but I will say that I'm a well-adjusted, reasonable atheist, and I think that following arbitraty rules from 2000 years ago makes no sense.

---

"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"

• My yr11 Economics teacher

I disagree with a lot of what you have posted wilson.

For one, while you may believe there is no God, the question in itself
is VERY important and makes a lot of difference. Say for example there
is a God, and he does follow a certain moral code and guidelines that
you may find "arbitrary". I'll get to that later, but for now, what do
you think the difference would be? Well, if it's true, than you will be
very unhappy after you die and perhaps even at various points in your
life, not because God forgot about you, but because you forgot about
God. Simultaneously, you will be missing out on a happiness we can not
comprehend. I say "very unhappy" as a tragic understatement, but I am
intentionally staying away from the classical Christian depictions of
Hell as a fiery pit.

On the other side of the coin, if there is no God, then all the people
following religion today, while some were still devoting themselves to
morals which can help society, will in the end be following a lost
cause and will not recieve their due after they die, but instead will
rot in the ground. So yes, there is a tremendous difference.

Is there anything wrong with abortions? Well, is there anything wrong
with murder? Yes, there may be a debate about a grey area; for example,
when is the baby alive? But nickel mentioned laws where you can legally
'terminate' a baby the day before it is 'born'. Do you really think the
baby magically comes to a different kind of life after it hits the air?
Would you honestly condone the very irresponsible act of killing a
newborn baby? If so, you prove nickel's point about the general
degradation of morals in society.

And no, 16 year old mothers having kids does NOT stem from them
choosing not to have abortions. The problem stems from the moment
they choose to have sex. Maybe she will not get pregnant,
especially with the technology we have today, but this is something to
EXPECT every time you have it. This is something that is lost in
today's society. You may not be aware of this, but the primary function
of having sex in most if not all species is to reproduce, and the desired
feelings that come along with it are to make the animals WANT to do it.
You should not be too surprised if the bodies actually managed to carry
out their intended function.

There have been generations that were decidely more moral than others,
but at the same time you're right, there have been generations before
and after that have been more depraved. Whether they can really be
compared, seeing as how today the whole world is becoming closer and
closer to one global society, rather than a collection of radical and
totally seperate societies, is debatable.

I've already made this long enough for a post, so I'll cut it short,
but I want to end on this. Some of those "arbitrary" laws are
thankfully still recognized by society today, and to even call them
arbitrary shows a ridiculous ineptitude to understand exactly what they
imply. Some are completely dependent on the existence of a God, yes
(i.e. Thou shalt worship no other Gods before me, etc), but others are
good for society as a whole. Anything that promotes loving families,
upright citizens, and wholesome behavior is enormously beneficial to
humankind, if only most could uphold them.

wil5on said:
I agree with your first paragraph, Nickel. The rest, while it follows from that, I can't agree with for the most part.

You can be an atheist and still understand the principles of good and right. I hope nobody takes it the wrong way. I think you can be almost any religion and still be a good, kind, person.

wil5on said:
Everyone has their own religion, based on their own interpretation of whatever religious teaching theyve had. I'm atheist, I beleive theres noone to "answer to" after I die, what difference does that make?

But if you have no religious teachings then you just use tidbits of the bible that u heard on TV and make your own religion. And, yes, I don't beleive EvERYTHING they say in church by any means, but I beleive the bible. There has to be a right and a wrong way of doing things, and not EVERYONe can be right. There's no gray areas. You as and atheist and me as a Christian cannot BOTH be right in our beleifs, you know? And your beliefs make a difference to me, because I care about other ppl, and what i beleive says that lots of other people are going to die eternal death. I don't want that to happen.

wil5on said:
Is there anything really wrong with abortions? Kids being born to 16 year old mothers probably stems from them deciding not to have abortions. Probably a result of parental ineptitude... but I'm generalising. There is nothing "wrong" with casual sex in itself.

of COURSE there's something wrong with abortions. The babies don't exist because thier moms didnt get abortions. The babies are born because thier moms were either raped or was having casual sex. THAT is what is wrong with casual sex. what u just said is the sort of reasoning that ppl employ to make thier lifestyle sound OK.

wil5on said:
You cant say our generation is worse than any other. It sounds like youre just being nostalgic for the past. Every generation had abortions, casual sex, godlessness, and this one is no different.

What past? I'm only 20 years old. You can't tell me there were shows that ADVERTISE casual sex on TV in the early days of TV or anything like it on the radio. Shows like "sex in the city" and "queer as folk" both STRONGLY suggest that casual sex is the norm, and that it's okay. AND that nothing will ever come of it, well something does come of it, it's babies.

wil5on said:
You say a lack of god will be the downfall of human society. I dont have the eloquence to describe how I feel about that statement, but I will say that I'm a well-adjusted, reasonable atheist, and I think that following arbitraty rules from 2000 years ago makes no sense.

"Arbitrary rules?" come on man, if you don't want to follow rules like "don't kill" and "don't steal" and "Love your neighbor" then there's something wrong there.
PS. I'm not mad at anyone, okay?

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Religion was created with good intentions, but unfortunately it has
been twisted by fanatics and crazies to further their own agenda.

Consequently, it's frequently used to justify horrifying deeds that are
completely out of character from the original interpretation of the
religion.

Mankind can never exist without religion. It's human nature to
have religion, and God is invented as a necessary character for most
religion to work.

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

If you want to state your opinions as factual, I will too.

It's human nature to have religion because there has always been a
higher power, and always will be. God was never invented, it is the
conceit of mankind that claims He was.

Nickelplate, I guess my argument boils down to there being no absolute morals. You are morally opposed to a lot of things, you see things as "good", "bad", "right", "wrong". I try not to see things like that. What happens, happens, and its not my job to judge peoples behaviour based on my own values. If they want to do stupid things and ruin their lives, I wont stop them. What to you seems like "wicked" behaviour, I see as stuff that happens. Until people having casual sex, abortions, etc. bothers me, I'm not going to speak out against it.

I'd also like to point out that there is nothing inherently wrong with killing, stealing and hating your neighbor. Its just generally a bad idea. These rules do make sense, but there are exceptions. Do you disapprove of soliders killing to protect you? The bible is full of rules that simply dont make sense in modern times as well, for examples of this read Leviticus.

---

"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"

• My yr11 Economics teacher

I really don't understand how somebody could get so depressed they contemplate suicide (except maybe chronic pain eg cancer). Also how somebody could fail in trying to kill themselves. I also believe no good has come of any suicide (well maybe Hitler).

---

Reckless disregard for childrens well being, women and nothing but utter contempt for other cultures.

I just want to say something, maybe to clear some air, even if it doesn't need it.

Religion is a belief. Anything you can't prove that you accept as a truth is a belief.

You cannot tell someone their belief is wrong. It's not only arrogant, but is also unfounded, since you don't know (unless you're Alterran ... in which case I want you to explain worm-hole technology ... now)

Faith, in general, keeps people sane. It really does help and make you feel better throughout your life. Whether it be true or not is irrelevant, they are tools to help you (general term) live a fuller life. For example, as you might have noticed, people who're Christian will most often times say, "I feel better since accepting Jesus". This gives a warming and secure feeling which that person can turn to for the rest of their life. It will essentially allow them to deal with almost any emotional situation they encounter. Again, whether this is really what is happening or not, is irrelevant.

At this point, many people who're atheist, not targeting anyone, may say "But if it isn't true, why should they believe". Because, the fact is, if the world IS nothingness and this is as good as it gets, a lot of people cannot face that fact and will crumble under its weight. This is why faith (in whatever) is a good thing to have. It's not as if it is harming people who believe in it or anything like that.

Now, with that said, no one has the right to push their belief onto someone else. You can try to understand their point (which is how this thread was when it started), but at no point do you have the right to try to enforce your view as the correct one. There is no right and wrong, that's WHY they're beliefs. If they were "strictly" right and wrong, everyone would follow them (generally). An example of something like this is: Killing someone. It's a general conceptualization that doing this is wrong, which it is. Now, of course there are always reasons, if they are not well founded, however, this is a travesty of an action. (By the way, when I say killing as a "bad thing" I mean: Murder. Not defending or "bringing justice" or anything like that.)

Believe what makes you happy. Because, even if you did force your view on someone else, you'd be taking something away from them that will, most likely, always trouble them, thus making their life much harder to live; whether or not there is an afterlife: once it's over, either way, they didn't enjoy the trip. So why do it?

There are, of course, situations where this isn't a factor, like your children. I think you should be open and encouraging to them about finding something to believe (whether it be God, no God, or Teddy Roosevelt). Allowing them to find something that suits them when they are older is something that should be encouraged and unless the ideas you believe are hopelessly pounded into their minds, they will question it. Not to mention the amount of trouble they will ultimately feel until they do figure it out, since they probably wont understand why they don't feel the same way their parents feel about those beliefs.

We're all here to enjoy our lives. I KNOW that is the meaning of life. It's the only possibility. Happiness and pleasure are the only things that make life worth living. If you believe something else: that's fine. I just hope you are comfortable with your beliefs and they actually help you. Because if they don't: what's the point?

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

I'd like to bring up the point that believing that a god does not exist (atheism) requires just as much "blind faith" as believing that god does exist since there is no proof either way.

Alright, some other things:

Now, with that said, no one has the right to push their belief onto someone else.

That statement you just said is a belif, is it not (you believe that no one has the right to push their belif on someone else)? You assert without proof that people do not have a "right" to do something, and you are pushing that belif onto other people. Oh wait, your statement just contradicted itself...

There is no right and wrong, that's WHY they're beliefs.

Who are you to say that there is no right or wrong? Do you have a proof that there is no right or wrong? Didn't think so. Believing that there is not a right or wrong takes as much faith as believing that there is a right or wrong.

---

http://maze5.net

I think actively asserting your belief is not pushing it on to other
people, with moderation. I think the only way you could push your
belief on to other people is either by forcing them to believe it or by
repeating your belief to that same person over and over despite their
consistent rejection of it.

I said, there's no right or wrong beliefs. And the common respect of not pushing your views on someone else is not something that is a belief. It's not okay.

I wasn't speaking of "right and wrong" as in "good or bad" or something as such, which seems how you're interpreting it, I meant it as in a right view or wrong view, the very concept doesn't make sense, since, it isn't provable.

However, taking what I said out of context, which is what you're doing.

Basically, my point was, if you didn't catch it, to live happily, it's not going to be acceptable to purposefully harm someone else, whatever the fashion of "harm" may be.

If you can't agree on that ... I don't know what to say.

However, I'm sure you're just being difficult and over analyzing what I said to try to make a spark. Which wont work. Because, even going by your line of thinking ... what makes it okay for you to question my views?

I'd like this to not really escalate, I'm just responding to your points. I made my "case" and everyone can take them as they may. They were just meant as sort of a observational view, that's all.

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting wil5on</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I'd also like to point out that there is nothing inherently wrong with killing, stealing and hating your neighbor. Its just generally a bad idea. These rules do make sense, but there are exceptions. Do you disapprove of soliders killing to protect you? The bible is full of rules that simply dont make sense in modern times as well, for examples of this read Leviticus.</DIV></DIV>

Yes, soldiers killing other soldiers is wrong. Let them stand aside and when they enemies reach me, I have a few options outlined in the bible "Flee from evil" or "turn the other cheek."

As for Leviticus, well, you need to understand the WHOLE bible, There is an old testament and a new testament, the new testament. In the new testament Jesus tells us that the old law no longer applies. This means that all that stuff about shellfish and mildew doesn't count anymore. Instead, we've all got the ten commandments, and the High Two. ?Love the Lord your God with ALL your heart and with ALL your soul and with ALL your mind and with ALL your strength; and the second is like it?love your neighbor as yourself? (Deut. 6:5; Mark 12:28-30-NIV). If you're wondering why the ten com. still stand after jesus said the old law doesnt apply, is because he said "I declare all things clean" which means that the levite laws which deal with ceremonial cleanliness are the N/A ones.

Crono. How are you so sure of all this?

I don't think telling people what you beleive is forcing it upon them, I dont think that telling them that your way is the only right way is forcing it on them. In order to force if on them, I'd have to pull a Cortez and say, "tell me you love Jesus or you die."

[edit] Oh yeah, and I, like Crono, really don't want this to be a pissing contest. I hope we can all present our views and supporting reasons without being snide about it. otherwise it becomes an arguement. this is a discussion and they're two different things.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

I think everything that can be said, has been said. I've looked over the ten commandments, they do seem like an arbitrary set of rules (and going through many translations didn't help I'm sure). However, I think I've already made myself clear on that point. I'm not going to hold myself to a set of rules like that.

---

"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"

• My yr11 Economics teacher

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Nickelplate</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
Look at how many people in the other thread or other people in general if you ask them said "I have my own religion, I don't like the idea of a higher being ruling my life, I beleive that as long as I'm a basically good person, I will be okay." or "I don't like all the rules so I have my own religion."
Nobody wants to answer for thier actions. </DIV></DIV>

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting wil5on</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I'm not going to hold myself to a set of rules like that.</DIV></DIV>

You beleive what you beleive, but I wish it wasn't this way.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

How are you so sure of your beliefs? Like I said, they're beliefs. What good is a belief if you're unsure about it? You change your mind, basically, when this arises. Which, in effect, can change what you believe.

In any case ... most of what I was saying was basically something everyone should agree on: don't oppress people. If you can't agree on that ... then what're you doing in the current world society? Honestly. This is what pretty much every nation is striving for. (whether they want to do it slowly or not to gain capital is another situation)

I think nit picking things I'm saying like, "you have no right to impose your belief on someone else" isn't valid. I really can't understand why you'd, basically, want to be such an arrogant dick to say, "Look ... I'd hate to break it to you, but this stuff you believe in is wrong ... and you're wrong for believing it" ... which we're all, seeming, to agree that that isn't okay. Unless you're just trying to make a conflict in the thread. (I'm not calling anyone this, it's just how I'd see this line of thinking. Just to clarify, I'm not insulting anyone here)

What I said, also, I should note, has nothing to do with my religious beliefs. It's mostly how I live my life ... which would be the same regardless of what I believe. But, regarding some of what I said as "matter of opinion" is really a bizarre thing to say, since I'm talking about basic human rights. If you want to say that I'm bestowing my views on your because I think people shouldn't be treated differently based on things they believe, but instead on things they do, then, fine. I just figured, the general goal would be to get along with other people ... not to get pleasure from harming them.

That's really all I was saying ... So ... I'm not sure how else to explain it.

It'd be the same as going up to a judge and going, "So, why is wrong for me to rape a woman?" or "why can't I murder people based on their [insert genetic feature]?". It really doesn't make sense unless you've got a peculiar view on things and life in general.

However, like I was saying ... you can't force someone to believe in something they don't agree with. It just doesn't work. And really, if it is just a belief (where as, human rights is more of an ideology) then you can't prove it thus ... you have no basis on imposing it ... I know a lot of people misunderstand what I'm saying on this point. Oddly enough, nothing insulting here, but the only people I've found (personally) that have this view tend to be Christian; it's always puzzled me why it was so important to "save" all these people if they don't want to be saved ... yet it's okay to goto war ... Not labeling here, or being stereotypical, just been my experience with some of the people who practice the religion. (And, no, I'm not blaming the religion, I just think some of the teachings get interpreted in very peculiar ways. Which could be for any number of reasons. Maybe even to the point that you're discriminated against if you don't think the same way. As I understand it ... for the most part, some branches are very discriminated against (mostly by people who're not very good at understanding their own religion, which they claim to take stock in)) ...

I hope I'm expressing what I was saying better ... I'm really not trying to raise more questions ... just maybe another way to think about it. That's all.

But, the problem is ... going back to the imposing views idea ... saying anything ... at all ... could be seen as imposing a view, ideology, belief, whatever.

But, yes, It'd be best to treat this as a discussion.

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

There is one problem with the bible, that it's hugely dated.

As you were talking about the ten comandments; "thou shall not praise
false idles" yet, here we all are, sitting on out computers with our
TV's, Hifi's, driving out car's. If that one rule is not followed and
doesn't relate to our own time period, why should the others, it's all
a matter of opinion when it comes to religion my view is that the bible
should not be followed because we all have common sense when it comes
to morals. Take for example abortion, many people are at either end
saying yes have one whenever, and at the other end saying no never! I
put myself in the middle, yes if the baby is from rape or if it's early
then it's really just a collection of cells which can't even think.

Or casual sex, if your into that then in my opinion have it if someone
else is up for it, although I would say always use protection of some
sort.

I have been to a museum a few weeks ago, they had a ... about evil. How it was 'invented'. Where it came from, and how it has been used in the scociety, now and in the past.

The evil as we know it now has been created by religions, so religions did set a standard that is still used by scociety. Personaly i believe religions where made because people couldnt understand the world. For me it only brought death and destruction. From the medievals in wich non-believers where tortured and killed, the spanish king hunted down everyone whom wasnt a christian and killed them.

Also i believe it was created as a tool to control the big mass of people. After all Jesus was just a politician, he knew how to motivate people and had his own view on the world.

And really, i consider the bible a unreliable source, it has been re-written dozen of times, all by authors whom had there own view on the world around them. That must have influenced them to change/add things.Now i ask you, How can a book that is thousends of years all still be representive for the 'words' of god and jesus?

---

RUST Gamedesign
pepper design

The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee.

This is turning into the religion poll from a couple of days ago. Also I agree with pepper that religion is a tool used throughout history to control the masses.

---

Reckless disregard for childrens well being, women and nothing but utter contempt for other cultures.

Just something for people to think about; no matter what their
theological beliefs. Religion was created to explain why things
happen and are the way they are back when people couldn't answer those
big tough questions. But science has grown, and taken over that role.

Science is a highly ritualized process for discovering and explaining
how things are the way they are. It is a Globaly accepted
system. Though we must realize that much of science, like other
religions, is theory.

As for teen pregnancy, while a religious background may prevent a teen
from having sex, I feel propper sex education would do a much better
job. At least in that case the teen in question would be aware of
things like safe sex. Modern sex education is just too little, too
late.

While religions that teach abstinance sound nice, that only works for
people who follow and believe in that religion. A sad example of
this is of a certain religion that belives using a condom is a sin, and
so goes to Africa (a country with a horrible AIDS epidemic) to preach
this and try to stop the use of condoms (and I'm sure try to stop
premarital sex also).

Science, religion and law are all messed up. There are far too many
humans on this planet. Humans still haven't learned to get along with
each other. And we all feel more like ranting about our religious
beliefs and hot social topics rather than talk about why this kid
killed himself and if it was okay for him to.

Saying that religion has been a tool to controle people is bashing what
religion should be, it is true that religion has been used as a tool
for contorl. For instance the white south spread religion to the
black slaves becuase that religion stated that if you did your job and
were good on earth an eternal heaven awaited you.

I agree with crono, we should live life respecting each other's
belifies and have a good time here on earth becuase the only thing we
know is that we will live here and we will die here. Everything
else is speculation.

I'm not religions becuase I cant devote myself to something that says
with no solid evidence that that religion is the right path. I
dont want anything to do with a god that would condem me for living a
pure life under the name of another faules god.

The Orthodox Church condemns all sexual intercourse that doesn't have
the purpose of procreation but it strangely doesn't say anything about
masturbation.

Ahem, It also condemns suicide stating that "God gives you life, only
He has the right to take it from you". Those who commit suicide don't
get proper funerals. Many think that if you commit suicide you become a
servant of the devil, too.

Such poppyc**k.

The reason people can say "Your beliefs are wrong." is because there is only one right way, and an infinite number of wrong ways to live.

About the false idols and our cars. It doesn't matter that we ARE in a sense paying more attention to our cars than we are to God. The rule still applies, you know? And about the lump of cells that can't even think: what about a brain-dead adult? can we kill that lump of cells that can't think?

Religion is not a tool to control people. In Basic Christianity, there's no one PERSON that controls anyone else, I mean who does THAT benefit?
Also, yes we can RESPECT other people's beleifs whether they're right or wrong, because so many of them have good points to them or have sound morals. So yes, respect other's religions and don't bash them even if you beleive they're wrong. but in such a logic/science-based community, we all should be able to present points without ppl getting angry and whatnot. (even if that point is that you think the other one is wrong.)

Andrei: The Orthodox Church has some things in thier cannon that aren't in the bible. among them are "the last rites" and the fact that ou don't get them if you commit suicide. Also, the bible says you can only have sex with someone if you're married, never anything about only for procraition. And, lucky for you, Masturbation is OKAY! In the bible, a man named Onan jacked off to keep from having a kid, and god killed him. The only reason that happened is becua se God TOLD him to have the kid but Onan didn't wanna. it wasnt the wanking that made god mad, it was the fact that he disobeyed a direct order. :smile:

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Religion stems from the very same existential insecurity that we feel today. Calling it a tool to control people is retarded - Christianity especially, whose faithful the Romans executed in its early years.

This is the most intellectually stimulating and entertaining gaming
forum I have been on in ages. I love you guys (and girls).

Just a point. Christianity was formed just as much as a political
movement as a religious one. Jesus was after all, pursecuted by
the Romans because he was against their control of the land.

And in the Old Testament, there are massive sections devoted to what to
do in various situations where your neighbors oxen fall into a hole on
your land and dies. (I'm not kidding, I took bibble studies and
was bored to tears reading that section). But basically a list of legal
advice on what to do if any old thing happens. Other examples
include ritual circumsision (hygiene) and Kosher food practices (food
safety regulations before knowlege of parasites and bacteria).

Indeed, "control" is a very strong, and perhaps incorrect term. But
looking back at history, one can see many examples of how a government
is paralleled and works with the dominant religion of its
country. The Shaman or Spirit Leader of a tribe or village giving
advice. Egyptian Pharos and Medieval Kings (among others)
declaring themselves second in power only to God or the Gods.

This is presently a concern for many Americans who are not Christian,
because our President is a strong believer in that religion and is
trying to push forward laws and actions based on the beliefs of that
Religion.

As a side note, I don't mean to bash or focus on Judao-Chrisitan ideals
or influence. It is just that they are the predominant religions
in America and so I am most knowlegable of them. I do try to have
equal respect and understanding of all religions.

It's good to see someone who's studied the bible in the thread. the Old Testamen is not Christianity, you probably knew, but your thread may confuse others who aren't so familiar. This is not just a game forum, it's everything from games to the meaning of life, and to some those things are the same.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

I like the Old Testament best. Ecclesiastes and Job FTW

Cassius said:
I like the Old Testament best. Ecclesiastes and Job FTW

yeah, that and all the stories about wars and stuff.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Good point Nickleplate. I guess I kind of take the Old Testament /New
Testament thing for granted. I also tend to blend Jewish and
Christian religions together a bit too much (as there are distinct
diferences besides the whole Jesus thing, which are also
important). I guess I'm just always amazed at how much distanced
the two religions are considering how much common ground they
share. But I guess the same goes for all people :smile:

I like the story of Genesis (actually all creationist stories) the best myself. Some really fascinating stuff.

OFF TOPIC:

[size=13]Crono makes possible the
longest posts out of anyone... just letting everone know. Because
usually i read about half of what he says in his long ass posts the my
ADD kicks in and i scroll down to the next reply hoping that they are
relating and i can see what Crono could have summerized in like half of
his posts.

[/size]

---

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/8521/windows981dk.jpg

Nickelplate is my dad

Thanks Windows98, I didn't realize that until just then.

BTW, i think the "Cpt. Obvious" just kicked in for you.... :rolleyes:

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com