I've recently started to play on-line again, specifically HL2DM. I've come across a few interesting uses of physics, most commonly used to make the RPG hard to get.

For example, in one map the RPG was placed on a far ridge. Players capable of strafe-jumping could jump on the ledge, others had to jump, grav-grab it and suffer some falling damage. Smart players would toss an explosive up on the ledge and pick up the falling presents.

Together with the thread about aim maps, this got me thinking about using physics more creatively. One thing I could think up on was emulating a sort of capture the flag mode, by rewarding players with points for dropping certain items into certain places. For example, there's a crystal in a map and whoever drops it in a fountain gains 5 points. The crystal glows very bright so whoever has it is pretty visible, much like any other ctf, and that player is somewhat hindered in his reaction time due to carrying the crystal.
Another thing is using items to activate traps or doors/bridges, such as in dm_lockdown, except with portable items. Think of power cells that eventually respawn at certain places. This could be used to unlock access to a powerfull weapon or a strong position, but one thing's for sure, it has to be worth the hassle.

I've also played with objects tied to length_constraints to make them deadly yet stay in place. And in my current map dm_mudanchee I've placed some items on a swinging platform and some just below a walkway, on a tiny ledge, waiting to be grav-grabbed.

So I wondered, how can we leverage the use of physics to a next level? I'm sure there are more ways to have fun with physics... :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

I'm liking the crystal idea. I'd like it even more if only the grav gun could pick it up (like a ball carrier) and it's radioactive or something. Haha, I don't know. I've been thinking about the same thing involving phyics, though.

Another thing is using items to activate traps or doors/bridges, such
as in dm_lockdown, except with portable items. Think of power cells
that eventually respawn at certain places. This could be used to unlock
access to a powerfull weapon or a strong position, but one thing's for
sure, it has to be worth the hassle.

/steals idea

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Posting And You

hmm, could you set up physics items in a way that you could use them for maneuvering, almost like the hook shot in zelda

/steals idea

I second that.

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o

These are some good ideas, especially the portable battery used to open areas or do things. You'd have to figure out some way to despawn and move the battery after its initial use though. Aside from the obvious use for traps, secret areas, or alternate routes you could make a crossfire-type mapwide superweapon that requires a battery (or three) brought from around the level and plugged in. You could also make a teamplay map that requires stealing the batteries in the other team's base to like call in an airstrike on their base or to remove base defenses or something. Too bad nobody seriously plays teamplay maps.

Another thing is that if I remember correctly from HL2, in the section of Highway 17 that has the batteries you can fire them from a distance at the slot and they will still automatically fit in, and that can lend itself to some awesome trick shots in a map (battery port is high up on a wall, shoot the battery into it from a distance to activate a trap or whatever).

However, I would discourage the use of such machinations to 'unlock powerful weapons' because in HL2DM there really aren't any such weapons worth blocking off. The most powerful weapon is the grav gun and everyone starts with it. You just can't carry enough ammo for the RPG or the alt fires for the smg or rifle, and you are basically balancing against weapons that Valve has already balanced to an annoying (IMHO) extreme. There's no egon insanity in HL2DM. If you are going to trap the other weapons then you might as well not have them in the map in the first place, because the cost/benefit ratio of putting the effort into getting the weapon will discourage anyone from bothering.

I'd second the annoying balance level of the weapons. It seems they took HL's weapons and stripped out the double fits, balanced and tweaked the others to get a small, versatile array. The result is too little variation, although it does keep you running for more ammo.

A full-blown all-weapon chamber could be a better reward then perhaps, although the RPG can be a good one too if the map is very open, as it easily dominates in such cases. Although that's probably because all those open maps have plenty of RPG ammo lying around... In which case, unlocking the RPG when the ammo is readily available sort of makes it a stronger weapon. But I get the point, in HLDM this would've worked better.

Reverting those batteries won't be too hard: remember the small cactus teleporter in Kleiners lab? Anyway, I like the throwing trick idea. In Ep1 this was done with combine ball sockets, but it can easily be emulated with other items. I also like the multiple socket idea for teamplays. Perhaps there's a few clans out there that do fight properly in teams.

As for any of you who want to 'steal' these idea's... go ahead. :razz: Make some maps around it. We need some more proper custom maps. :wink:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

remember the small cactus teleporter in Kleiners lab?

nooooo... ?!?

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Why snark works.

I like to build barricades out of tables and filingcabinets. This works well especially on dm_overwatch, near where the RPG spawns. That's what I always hated about overwatch - unless you're an ace at gravnadding, there's no way you can get a more experienced player to come down from that damned roof once he gets his mits on the PRG.

Also like building "demotraps" out of explosive barrels, wooden benches (or planks) and tripmines. I place the bench/plank over the barrel and then place an upward-pointing tripmine so that the red beam ends at the bench. Other players usually don't notice it and the slightest bump sets it off.

True, overwatch is horribly unbalanced with it's RPG placement. If the RPG was placed in a close quarter area, then at least that player had to fight his way up. At least make such an overwatch point bare of any health and armour and ammo to balance it against the lower area's, and/or provide players below with SMG grenades and stuff. But no.

Cool trick bytheway Andrei. Takes some practice to get good at I assume, because anytime I tried that the tripmine went off too soon... :razz:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

I really dislike HL2DM :/ The maps are terrible, the weapons are bad and unbalanced... you really can tell that it was a sloppy, last minute add-on they didn't care about. It's not worth bother to map for, so I haven't.

Maybe this would be better for mod maps?

Then again maybe some creativity would make HL2DM suck less :x

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Overwatch isn't about "balance". I like how you can build barriers and camp up there. It's a kind of gameplay more akin to Garry's mod than CS. That's what I like about HL2DM. Which might be the same reason classic DM players and "pro-gamers" dislike it. :sad: I don't play HL2DM for my aim and b-hopping skillz or ammo-management. I play it for physics mayhem and ridiculous slam-spamming. Camping at the overwatch with a couple of teammates is a golden gaming moment. I even enjoy fiddling with ways to frighten away the enemy team up there (grav-nading, hiding on the bottom and waiting for a good shot ect.). This is something that appeals to me a lot.

The enormously rich entity system could make for gameplay similar to TFC. There's a lot of potential and physics is one of the most interesting possiblities here! :smile:

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Why snark works.

I want Fortress Forever to come out :sad:

Why don't you guys strip the player of weapons on spawn?
Start them up with the pistol and crowbar. HLDM style.
Then build your map around that..

I would consider the grav gun a necessity for everyone because of the need to plow through physics crap blocking hallways and stairwells and such. Without it you could be blocked from portions of the map by somebody who does have a grav gun.

tbh, my main complaint about HL2Dm hasn't much to do with weapons but with that annoying and unpredictable slow-downs oups - I mean "sprint feature".

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Why snark works.

That's why I said to build the map around that. What I mean is, to place everything so maybe only one path could be blocked, other players could still get to the other side, it just might take a bit longer. Or, you could just throw out the grav gun altogether.

I don't know; it was just a suggestion. Personally, I like not getting assassinated by a toilet within the first three seconds I spawn in. It gets very annoying after the first time.

I actually like the original topic so... I always thought there should be more weight-based physics puzzles. They were great in HL2.

Like a door that opens when you shove a dishwasher on a ramp. I tried to do that in dm_resident with that pulley-elevator and the suitcases but it stayed more of an... erm... experiment than anything that adds to gameplay.

But there's a lot of potential. Like the negative version of it in the speedboat level where you put the blue barrels that float under the ramp. Great!

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Why snark works.

The problem with these puzzels is that they're finally all rehashes of the same basic idea, so after a few puzzels you want something fresh. I think HL2 did this well: not too much puzzles, but enough to make the physics a part of the gameplay. There's only so much time a player can learn advanced tricks throughout a game, so a puzzle where you'd have to use the grav-grenade trick would've been overkill for the singleplayer mode.

Multiplayer however is different: you'll have to keep both starters and experienced players in mind. I can pull off the grav-nade trick pretty well now and the super-ball is something I recently discovered too (giving the combine ball double speed by quickly pushing it with the grav-gun after launch).
Anyway, I like it when there's multiple solutions, like the RPG ledge situation I described in my first post. Some of the HL2 puzzles really had just one solution (although the first brick-balance wood-board puzzle could be solved by stacking up the bricks as a staircase :biggrin: ), and that's a pity I think. A case of restrictive design, over-controlling the player just to make sure they all get the same experience. Easy trap for designers I think. Not that that happens only with puzzels or so...

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

I always like the puzzles of Trespasser. They had many of the puzzles we see in HL2, years before that - and more! After I played the game I always thought what if a game developer made this right, you know, a physics engine that actually works. Now here we have it. :biggrin:

TP still has a surprising community, some members actually hacked their way into the level files and created a full-blown level editor from scratch. Check out the TC Isle if you're really bored one day. It's amazing.

I might dig the game out over the Christmas holidays and have a look.

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Why snark works.

I almost forgot: Magnets!

Magnets must be very cool when used right. It's hard to think of a proper use gameplay-wise but there must be a lot you can do with it.

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Why snark works.

Heh, I completely forgot about those. :smile:

I just saw another interesting thing in a map: healthpacks floating against the ceiling of an underwater area. I don't know if it's usefull for some sort of gimmick, but it was funny to be reminded of the floating nature of these items in that way. :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

It's a shame there are no swimming animations (are there?).

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Why snark works.

No I don't think so. And there aren't any ladder-climbing animations either iirc.

I remember throwing a healthpack at an opponent once and healing him, only to be eviscerating him with my crowbar moments later. :evilgrin:

Ladder-climbing animations don't work without crippling the ladder movement even more or 6 months of extra coding. It's like demanding hand animations for picking up objects. Wrong, wrong, wrong...

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Why snark works.

It's like demanding hand animations for picking up objects. Wrong, wrong, wrong...

Now that's something I always missed in HL2! Just as a sitting animation for chairs: I didn't put in chair props just for fun! :razz:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

Well, again, Trespasser shows what can happen if you spend too much development time on something as difficult and minor :heee:

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Why snark works.

okay, here comes my idea again.... We all get together and create a mod.

• This mod will have GREAT maps, because they are made by US at the snarkpit.
• We will bring back GOOD weapons (worth trapping) like teh Gauss and Egon. Plus we will have lots of the GOOD weapons that were in the leaked HL2 beta. They had some good stuff in there!
• we can add any of the features we miss about HL1DM and use the good engine from HL2DM along with custom-tailored "Snarkpit" features.

Nobody seems to want to commit to making a mod. But if we all gave a wee bit of time, we could do it.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

We should bring back SNARKs! :biggrin:

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Why snark works.

HECK YEAH!

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

I've been wanting to do that for a while. :biggrin:

Combine snarks :biggrin:

They could like..be walking manhacks.

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Boo f**king Hoo

No coders, no mod; no mod, no snarks .

HL2dm-Pro came close to doing that, and they did it very well (of course they didn't have snarks or the egon). They offered options to switch between normal HL2DM gameplay, and HL1DM gameplay. Hell, they even expanded on HL2 ideas, like using the gravity gun to push players, as well as pick up objects. It is quite a beautiful mod. Sadly, lack of community support has all but killed it - nobody plays it anymore.

You know, they did release HLDM:Source, right... it got no graphical upgrade, but it is ripe with potential for beautiful HL2 quality maps (or better). They have a small community. I played the game for a short while when it was released (right before Episode 1). Unfortunately, it was more annoying to me than fun. The Gauss nukes you almost everytime you use it, which is the biggest bummer of them all. Give it a try though - maybe some of you will dig it enough to throw it a map or two.

I was asking about that awhile ago. Crono helped me out with that.

Maybe the Black Mesa project will have the multiplayer that HLDM:S should have been.

Snarks and physics... mmm.

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Why snark works.

yeah and the coral weapon, that takes care of the "hookshot" idea
and the jumppack too

It's going to be a tall enough order, just to get the full singleplayer game. That's a huge undertaking. I wouldn't count on a very polished multiplayer, but what do I know, maybe it's not so hard to tack it on.

Oh, and the grapple weapon was Oppossing Force - BMS wouldn't have that. They would have the longjump though.

Personally, I'm kind of worried about the BMS DM implementation. I don't think any of us on the team were really big HL1DM players. Maybe we could involve some clans to help? I don't know... Of course, this won't be a priority for a while. :razz:

I'd be happy to offer any help I can. I played that game at a highly competitive level for many years. I could definately tell you what feels right or wrong about it.

mebe we should just make something new that implements a lot of abilities to move around for some more interesting gameplay instead of resurrecting old stuff