Many of you might not care about the controversy about violent video games causing all the evil in the world.

But I am actually affected by this. The last Steam updates turned all soldiers in HL1 into robots. They don't bleed when you shoot them or show anything you could use to guess whether you hit or not. Not even a spark. If they're caught in an explosion they freeze in movement and slowly fade into transparency. There is no blood or bodies lying around, just super-clean, sterile environments. The aliens don't even bleed yellow. If barney dies he sits down and shakes his head. It's a disturbing mix of censorship probably aimed at 6-year olds and a game that is clearly made for adults. Imagine the Bonnie Situation from Pulp Fiction without blood. Here's a pic of robots slowly becoming invisible while standing still in the middle of a giant explosion:



And thanks to wonderful Steam there is no way I can fix this. Even though in my country there is no censorship of any kind. From one day to the other I got this and according to Steam support the only thing I can do is import a new copy from another country. It worked in the past when I switched to English language, now they decided to "change their policy" (or Germany forced them to). Now a non-kids-friendly version of a game about SHOOTING STUFF is verboten. Change a file and Steam will lock the game and re-download the censored one. Great. Like I didn't need another reason to hate Steam.

And Germany is lobbying to abandon "Killer-Spiele" and make it illegal to distribute them within the EU.

Actually, the reason I started this thread is because I found this very interesting post over at Penny Arcade which (if it's authentic, and I have no reason to doubt that) explains the recent events of a kid in America beating a bum to death and now blames video games for it. It's a response letter by a woman who actually had to deal with this kid for several years, making it very clear what she thinks about him blaming video games for his violent outbreaks. Interesting read, and an argument I like to see being spread among gamers who have to live with censorship and ignorant politicians who don't even know the difference between a Super Nintendo and a PC. Nothing surprising for me but a nice example for how this trend works.

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Why snark works.

What the mother f***?

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

curses, this is why my senior project is arguing against blaming video games for kid's violence, next they'll be remaking all movies as cartoons with robots

If you have bought the German version of HL1 at the release (version 1.0+) all soldiers were replaced by robots by default. That's why I got the US/UK version a few months later :smile:

Scary that they included this in latest Steam updates, though!
If they want to boost up piracy - head on!

I can't stand the term "Killerspiele" anymore ("Killergames" in English). They are FPS - FIRST PERSON SHOOTER - please you mighty media - use the correct term for it since I call you "media" and not "make-people-stupid-establishment".

I fear that the "Bend to the trend" mentality will eventually ruin all gaming.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

if you used a UK gcf file to replace your own, then i can understand that steam would cry about it, but extracting the contents into the right places in your game directory should work.

i remember seeing the robot models for the german version of tfc. after that, i found it hard to understand why there were so many german players.

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i eat paint

right now i'm looking at my box of HL1. i see an icon from ESRB and there's a big M there, and it says MATURE.

now i go to www.esrb.com and read:

ESRB said:
MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

it's for 17+, not for kids, why would they censor it?
why don't they censor or delete forever games like GTA? THAT is a very violent game, way, way worse than half-life.

i think that HL1 is fun to play, all those gibs, all those models, all that blood. if you take that serious, you're stupid. if you don't, it's ok.

by the way fishy, is the guy in your avatar the legendary Gman?

Wow. Honestly, that's fking ridiculous. As asterix_vader points out THIS IS A GAME FOR 17+. Are there no parents any longer, or is it the case that they don't give a fk? If they ban violent games because underaged users are affected in a bad way, they should hurry up and ban alcohol and a whole heap of others things real quick, including many movies and books. Why not ban fat food and candy while they're at it? I'm sure many of those have a MUCH bigger impact on children and their wellbeing.

Also, as has been mentioned a thousand times, if someone, child or not, goes out and kick the s**t out of a bum because of a computer/video game they are SICK, and games are not the problem.

There are a bunch of violent games out there that I consider to be pure art. Have they ever considered banning paintings and other traditional artwork forms depicting violence? If they start banning/censoring games I think they should.

I know Snarkpit's policy on piracy and everything, but I suggest you go download HL1 illegally. What the hell, I'll even help you find it if you want. Forcing those that have already paid for the game to import it from another country is BS.

If there's a petition against this someplace, send it my way and I'll sign it right away. If not, I suggest someone that knows all the details create one.

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What the Snarkpitters listen to!

My biggest problem with blaming videogames lies in the fact that many
carry M+ ratings, in the UK they even carry 18+ (the same as movie
boxes) certificates and parents buy them for the kids. There's no way
kids can afford or legally buy such games from vendors, so the parents
musta been the ones to buy them in the first place.

Sticking little Joe Bloggs in front of the telly with his video games
is the easy life, noone bothers to check what such games are. Theres
lot of other strands about societal morals and whatnot, but ultimately
only the parents are legally and financially able to buy these games -
so they are to blame. Not the designers.

Wow, another reason why I wish you would not have ridiculed me when i said "man this 'STEAM' deal is gonna suck!"

That said, This censorship is getting out of hand! the only thing I can think of that we can do is start killing a burning! I saw it on this cool Killer-Spiel!

What CAN we do? We've allowed too much "big brotherism" control over our games by now.

This is why i like to BUY CDs of my games. not download it.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

This is more a question of national censorship policies rather than Steam, surely?

well, gwil, Steam didn't HAVE TO change the models on their 17+ game to happy robots. not every nation censors as much as guilt-crippled Germany.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

But surely thats a national issue rather than a Steam issue? Steam
would have to adhere to or at least fall in line with general opinion
for its consumer base.

Dude Nickel, steam would be the way it is, with or without anyone giving you a hard time. I think its a bit of a stretch to think that if no one picked on you that you'd still be available to do some griping. :heee:

Geez, people been ragging on me for 6 years. I throw a tantrum ever once in a while, then settle back in for another round.

Grow some nads man. :razz:

ON TOPIC: I think my biggest issue with this whole games thing is that the world, or the portion in charge whats everyone to believe that kids are as gullible as a bunch of cow eyed girls. I mean seriously, how can anyone think that all these violent kids got that way by gaming?

WTF did the violent kids do before the transistor was invented?

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The best things in life, aren't things.

http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/impact/myths.html
Now if only the big news corporations that 95% of the population look at reported stuff like that...

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o

I don't think that the general consensus of gamers is that we need less violence in games. I think it's that we need more parenting and less babysitting by the TV.

Orpheus, I've got nads aplenty. Don't be insulting me.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Nickelplate said:
I don't think that the general consensus of gamers is that we need less violence in games. I think it's that we need more parenting and less babysitting by the TV.

Dude, you're never going to convince parents that thats where the trouble lies.

Think about it. If they thought for a moment that it was a parenting issue, they'd be blaming OTHER PARENTS.

I'm sorry but most parents have no scruples at all when it comes to blaming other parents for children with issues.

We'll discuss your jewels later. :razz:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Hey, man... Parents already DO think it's every other parent! what about "It takes a whole village to raise a child" That bullcrap has been taking the responsibility away from parents for a long time.

I stand firmly by the thought that it is bad parenting in most cases.

No need to discuss me jewels, Guvnah.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Are you honestly suggesting mass murdering of parents, Orpheus?
.
.
.
Because I'm up for that.

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

What video game did you get THAT idea from, you sick kid?!

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Nickelplate said:
What video game did you get THAT idea from, you sick kid?!

Donkey kong..

Oh now,wait. We were gonna discuss your jewels later.

Sorry, my bad.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

lol.

Anyway. I wish they'd leave my games alone... Taking mature content out of "Mature" rated games is like taking the alcohol out of alcoholic beverages... In either case, you're removing the mature content from things that kids are not supposed to have, anyway.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

I found this, just for you bud.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

It should probably be pointed out that the FBI report on the Columbine High School massacre (which the media blamed on DooM for no other reason than that Eric Harris was a damn good mapper) makes absolutely no references to DooM or even violent video games in general. The whole idea that violent video games make children violent is just a great media confabulation.

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Better to be in denial than to be human.

Bill Gates understands binary: his company is number one, and his customers are all zeros.

Woaah, I had no idea the subject was taken to these levels in Germany. This is absolutely outrageous and anyone supporting this kind of censorship should get executed on spot. I can honestly not believe this is happening at all.
Has nobody in Germany made the points mentioned above, as this kind of censorships should also include alcohol, tobacco, porn, driving, along with everything else prohibited for people under 18? It's an argument that can not be ignored.
Absolutely f**king ridiculous and I'm raged to the f**king f**k, f**kasses.

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"Azelito, stop being a f**king bitch. All I see you do is complain and insult people in your recent posts. We don't care, go find a razor you emo pansy..." -Windows98

Do you think the guys who robbed my house played too much thief?

We need a patch now (in Germany of course) where he sneaks around and leaves gifts for everyone. And if he gets caught they shake hands and laugh at lifes good fortunes.

I see no news about this in any other source including Steam news, which by some kind of law, has to tell us what exactly they are putting on our computers, right?

Some kind of prank?

[edit] okay, no. I found this

http://www.planetcrap.com/topics/354/

so others are starting to complain.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

They aren't putting it on our computers though Nickel, they're putting it on German computers. I guess Austria gets caught up in that, sadly. A quick google turned up a little mention of it, as well as a fix...

http://nambulous.wordpress.com/2007/01/03/half-life-source-uncut-even-in-germany/

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

How do they determine who is in germany? coz my computer is set to "german" in a lot of settings...

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Then you're doomed, Nickel :biggrin:

No, I think they're checking IPs now. A pretty bad check, but I doubt they'll confuse the US with Germany :wink:

As for the IP-checking: Hurray for Steam.

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Why snark works.

This is just too dumb for words. Ok, maybe a few.. but that's all im giving it. The German government and its witchhunt refuse to look beyond "Killergames", and ignore the parents, general upbringing, and murderous nature of the individuals. I mean, maybe if some kid was a saint his entire life, then went and killed his classmate after a session of GTA3, there would be at least a single instance of what the German government believes the problem to be. And even then, many more spawns of satan are caused by bad parenting than violent video games.

sigh

Violent video games did not create our violent society. Our violent society created violent video games.

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the players tried to take the field
the marching band refused to yield

So true, Bewbies!

It's not like game companies decided one day that they would make Violent video games and sell them to people who abhor violence. They catered to what the consumer wanted. And now, they're doing the opposite, IMHO.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

I don't know what to think about this anymore. Of course all gamers agree but the people in the media love the distorted controversy and willingly use the politicians' arguments. They air reports that cut 1 second clips of Counter-Strike with Columbine videos and dramatic music playing in the background. "Killerspiele" almost translates to "Murder-Toys" in German, something for kids to learn how to murder. Which shows how most people still think these games are aimed at at kids or teenagers who masturbate while knifing virtual civilians.

For most people I know I feel like kicking at an open door, but there are serious political movements to ban FPS games.

What I find very ironic is that in past years I never, not even once, heard about violent movies. That Erfurt guy who posted videos of him re-enacting scenes from The Matrix in youtube videos... No-one mentioned movies even once. It's not fashionable. Of course, Counter-Strike is to blame. Maybe they'll find a new target in the future but right now it's computer-games. (As a side-note, I read an article about another teenager massacre in Germany (btw, why do they happen so often in the country with the strictest media-cencorship of violence in the world?) that mentioned "Final Fantasy" as their major "inspiration".)

But yea, again, I feel like kicking at an open door posting this here. There are so many arguments against this nonsense but sometimes I feel like there are too many. I still don't know where the core of all this stupidity lies. Maybe there is none, it's going circles. They're using people's inability to remember things that were explained 10 minutes ago and bring the same three unsubstantial arguments over and over again in discussions.

It's kinda frustrating. :sad:

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Why snark works.

No doubt that violent games/films/music can influence a child, hell, they influence adults don't they? That's why you see grown men rapping and walking around in what I can only describe as a diaper for a 30 year old.

But, it is the parents responsibility to make sure their kid does not have access to this stuff, just like they do with alcohol, ciggerettes, drugs etc. Take some bloody responsibility!

True. Actually, I would try to restrict their access to huge amounts of weaponry first. Where do they get all those UZIs?

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Why snark works.

But, it is the parents responsibility to make sure their kid does not have access to this stuff, just like they do with alcohol, ciggerettes, drugs etc.

Speaking from experience, if kids want access to alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, etc, they general get it. It's not the parents' job to keep those things away from their children, that's just plain impossible (without living underground or in a closet or something). Their job is to help their child form moral values and a sense of right and wrong, and to talk to their kids about how that stuff will end up hurting them much more than it's worth in the end.

TV, the 21st century babysitter, gives a very skewed view of the world and reinforces materialistic values with the five minutes of 'buy this!' every ten minutes. American public school, from my personal view, serves to make many kids feel disenfranchised and faceless in the system, while the frustrated, overworked teachers who deal with hundreds of students a day give them a poor education focused on passing standardized tests so the school can get more funding, rather than preparing the kids for the rest of their lives. (cough NO STUDENT LEFT BEHIND ACT cough)

Games (at least good games) teach kids how to solve problems dynamically, to view errors not as failures, but as chances to learn. Kids know the difference between games and reality, anyone who tells you otherwise is full of s**t, and is probably old and either doesn't have kids or doesn't spend time with them, or has a political agenda. Granted, the majority of games don't have broader moral messages or try to teach people something, but the rest aren't "teaching kids to be violent."

Games are the big scapegoat these days for the ails of society, just as rock and roll was when it was in it's infancy, and before that it was music like jazz, blues and swing "negro music." It's blaming a single entity/ideal because the problems that are actually to blame are a lot harder to fix.

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o

Look guys, I've always agreed wholehartedly with the community on this one, but recently I've come to think that there may be some validity to the theory that games/movies can in fact enable killing. For anyone really interested in learning about the topic instead of bashing away with the same tired old arguments, I recommend the book On Killing, by David Grossman. It isn't about video games, but it does have a chapter on the subject. I won't say it's the best written book I've ever come across, but it contains some very interesting ideas from authoritative sources.

The gist of it is this:

The vast majority of people appear to have a very strong subconscious inhibition against killing other humans. This has nothing to do with your rational faculties. Even those who completely lack this inhibition are not necessarily psychotic killers. You are who you are, and your rational brain keeps you from hurting other people. This book deals with what happens when you are past reason. The point is that even when you find it logical to kill another, be it as a soldier in war, or simply because your insane like these teenage murderers, most people can't do it.

Soldiers in all wars up until Vietnam exhibited a behavior known as "non-firing" 85% of all soldiers on the battlefield never fired a shot at the enemy. They deliberately fired over their heads or not at all. This is born out in historical casualty rates and actual studies done during and after WWII. Even while being ordered to kill, with their own lives in grave danger, and all the official morel and legal sanction one could wish for, the vast majority of men could not bring themselves to kill another.

in Vietnam, things changed. The firing rate was brought up to ~95% though new army training programs stimulated by the non-firing problem discovered during WWII. All modern armies now use similar training programs... which just happen to be VERY similar to FPS games. Practicing the act makes it possible. I do want to emphasize however that being conditioned in this way doesn't make you a killer. However, it just might make it possible for you to pull the trigger if the time ever does come when you think you need to.

Imagine a deranged child who steals his parents gun, points it at someone, and then finds himself unable to take the final step. Then compare this to one who has practiced the "final step" so often on screen that it is quite simply automatic. Is there a difference? The derangement was not caused by the violent media, neither was the decision to kill in any way different than it would have been in their absence. What changes is that final psychological hurdle. What changes is the difference between life and death.

Would you know if that last safety catch in your mind was being worn down? I doubt it. For most of us, it would probably never make any difference because we would never decide to kill in the first place. But does it enable the otherwise deranged? I can't say for sure, and I don't buy everything in this book or everything I just said, but I think it is possible and worth thinking about.

Good insight, as always Tracer!

Let me preface all this by saying that I played violent games since wolfenstein and Rise of the Triad. I think can honestly tell you that I had violent thoughts about my schoolmates during that time in my life that I was made fun of. Sure there were one or two that I wanted to kill just to make them stop, because they would not stop any other way. Sure i thought it'd be cool to totally make them piss their pants in front of a gym full of people while holding a gun to their head, whether i pulled the trigger in these fantasies, I don't know. I never would have thought of killing if killing had not been done before, I never would have imagined the instrument of death as a gun if guns had not been invented before I had these thoughts. I never would have thought to put it to his head unless I'd seen it somewhere before.

Does that mean that the invention of killing, and firearms is responsible for these thoughts and how easy i thought it'd be? I don't think so. I played half-life for a long time and also during this time in my life. I never thought of bludgeoning with a crowbar or how cool it'd be to release snarks upon my nemeses.

I guess what I am saying is that our WHOLE life experience is responsible for who we are, not JUST games, not JUST TV, not JUST genetics or bad parenting. I think that an increase in violent content in Games, TV, Movies, and Music among the other media has led to a higher average of violence in each individual.

Before, I wanted to stick up for games because I love to play them and design for them. I hate restrictions on currently unrestricted areas such as STEAM and censorship of original works like art, movies and games. I hate security lockdowns and patriot acts. They take it too far.

But less violence in our media (which almost wholly controls small kids, I've seen from my nephew) would be a far greater thing than more of it.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

I've also read On Killing, I found it in the library back when I was at uni, and I also thought that Grossman had some valid points in the area you've pointed out Tracer.

The effect of training, and of constant exposure to simulated killing, is not to turn people into savage murdering psychopaths, but rather wear down that inbuilt barrier that stops a normal person from being able to kill another person. It's crucial for a soldier to enable them to fight to their full capacity. And even though they find it easier to kill when necessary, like a normal person they still feel remorse for the act.

The book also has some interesting insights into psychopaths, which is really what applies to those people who go on shooting spree's. They have no barrier in place to begin with, and feel no remorse for killing. Often the most successful career soldiers are psychopaths, simply because they have no problem with killing other human beings.

It's also interesting to read the sections on squad based combat, and how a soldier in this situation overcomes the natural impulse not to kill. While the soldier may not even want to kill to save their own life, they will gladly kill, even sacrificing their own lives, in order to save the lives of their comrades.

Anyway, I highly recommend this book. A number of very interesting insights about killing in combat and military training. Though I think Grossman's stand on video games is strange considering his own research.

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Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'

The military training that is similar to shooter games is not the same beast at all. The participants train with those tools with the sole intent of becoming a better soldier, and they do it alongside actually firing the same weapon. Playing a game is generally to be entertained, not to train to become better at killing people. The mindset is fundementally different, and the player takes something completely different away psychologically. Also, most gamers will never fire a gun in their lives, much less the same rocket launcher, .50 Cal machinegun, high-powered sniper rifle, etc, the same day as playing the game. If your kid is playing a game in which he/she shoots innocent people, and then goes to the gun range and does some target practice with their AR-15 directly afterwards, that should raise a red flag for any parent.

Clicking a mouse or pressing a button on a controller is very different from aiming a gun at a person and pulling the trigger, and again, even small children know the difference between games and reality. Do kids really think they are superman when they wear their blanket as a cape? Do they truly believe they are a doctor or a spaceman or a cowboy? No. They can make the distinction between play and reality, and it's the same for video games. Do you think you're actually shooting alien zombies in Half-Life?

Another huge factor in this equation that is usually left out is that per capita occurrences of violent crime have been in a steady decline in the US since the mid 1990's, about the same time the first FPS games were introduced (not that those two things are related at all). The occurrence of violent crime for all age groups has been steadily declining as video games (the great evil of the modern world) are hitting their stride. Seems to me that there is no overt correlation between violent video games and violent behavior.

Violent crime rates at US Department of Justice site

I think can honestly tell you that I had violent thoughts about my schoolmates during that time in my life that I was made fun of.

I don't think that's abnormal at all, violent thoughts are a natural part of anger for healthy people. The fact of the matter is, you had the thoughts and did not act on them, despite Satan making his best effort through Wolfenstein 3D to make you act on them. Kids who shoot up their schools don't do so because they play CounterStrike, that's just retarded.

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o

I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but I noticed this clip from a German current affairs show on Kotaku this morning, and thought it was a rather stark insight into how the German media look at games...

http://kotaku.com/gaming/clips/nutty-german-current-affairs-story-239748.php

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

Well that's what Germany is best known for in history, isn't it?

Having a mind twisting propaganda and blaming the wrong people/things for their misery.

I am 20 years of age and yes, I know what's good for me and what is not.
If you want to ban/censor games - do it! But keep them available for those who reached the age of 18+.
I rather ask for a specific US/UK-game in a store than buying Doom 4 with Bunny-Zombies and plastic guns.
Yes and stay away from drugs because they avoid the pleasure of enjoying your wonderful life sober.

Yeah, but with drugs, you get to enjoy the pleasure of your wonderful life stoned.

As a general statement: too much of anything is a bad thing, and often one doesn't know how much is too much until after they've had way too much.

/two cents

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o

I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but I noticed this clip from a German current affairs show on Kotaku this morning, and thought it was a rather stark insight into how the German media look at games...

http://kotaku.com/gaming/clips/nutty-german-current-affairs-story-239748.php

I couldn't stand to watch more than 1/3 of that video. I was simply overwhelmed by the amount of stupid per second that was being shoved in my face. It pains me that a certain asskissing government thinks that whatever the germans do is gold.

I think what's particularly interesting is how Germany seems to be dodging this bullet on question:

Violence exists, it can't be hidden. Sometimes to do good things (exagerated example: Save the universe) there is violence.

Would germany rather sensor out some kind of compelling story with a hero who does all of mankind a favor simply on a count of that there's violence in it? Excuse me, but violence has existed in virtually everything. Is germany going to ban books next?

/rants

@Andrei: I managed to survive about a minute of that tripe before I had to turn it off. Do I get a reward? :heee:
edit: Why on earth is all my text being formated into oddly shaped paragraphs?

Do I get a reward?

Yes, a big box of laxatives, to help you digest the stupid. :heee:

From Family Guy
Brian and Stewie are on a guided tour of Germany
Brian: Wait, in this brochure, there's nothing written from 1935 to 1945.
German Tour Guide: Nothing happened!
Brain: Germany invaded Poland in -
Guide: We were invited! Punch was served, check with Poland!

Do I get a reward?

Yes, a big box of laxatives, to help you digest the stupid. :heee:

I thought those were to get the stupid out of your system faster.

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

To quicken the final stages of digestion then :heee: .

I remember that quote, and the fact that the tour guide got up and gave the nazi salute while yelling something in german (too fast for me to understand, but he ended with "we will not let anyone insult germany" methinks).

I remember the media here jumping on the blame-game bandwagon a few years ago, but they never got beyond showing some screens from counter strike and having some dumbass psychologist chanting about how these people (gamers) enjoy themselves by killing others with guns. All in all, it made gamers look like disturbed freaks who masturbate at the thought of blood.

I might read the book you're talking about, Tracer.

What really irritates me about this discussion is the sensationalism of it. It's too easy.

I really don't know if "pulling the trigger" is that much of a barrier for a psychopath. I mean barrier enough to need a computer-game to "unlock" it. If 85% of soldiers didn't fire at their enemy in WW2 then there are 15% that did. Did so without the later developed training methods. I think most psychopaths were likely in this group. Statistics can be bend in any direction.

You know, the only argument that really bothers me, the only one that can't be knocked over lightly is that this kind of seemingly motiveless shooting in schools all occurred with the rise of violent 3D computer games. Yes, there were others, but none of this kind. The columbine shooters did map for Doom (this always gives me goosebumps).

The only explanation I can think of is that the motives weren't the "joy" of killing innocents but the idea of getting "famous". The time was coincident with the rise of the Internet and the latest revolutions in informations technology. I think that never before a student could think of himself of being "heard" by the world so clearly. They planned it as a big, global event, that I think a student in th 70ies couldn't have even imagined.

All other school shootings since then have clearly been inspired by Columbine, sadly it's no surprise there were copycats. So listing shootings since them doesn't really make sense because most of them did all the things the media wrote about, even things that weren't true (such as re-building the school in a 3D-editor in order to "plan" the attack). So many of the media-hyped horror-stories became self-fulfilling prophecies.

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Why snark works.