DM_Hydro

Well, I guess I shouldn't have judged it by the screenshots. But it's not like I were throwing rocks or anything; just a personal impression:) .

I realised that. I wasn't snapping at you, just pointing out that the screenshots don't give an accurate impression of the size of the map, or the actual combat space.

NIce looking map.... even though i hate mp i might just download it:)

Here are some screens of the changes/additions made since the
competition, which will be featured in the beta 2 released in a couple
of days, new weapon placement permitting. The shots show the new larger
tunnels, the addition of a walkway and structure across the canal, and
small stairs that have replaced all of the jump crouch areas (they've
been clipped so they work smoothly).

Most of the bugs, except for those damned pink shadows, have been fixed
so its just about done. I'll try to fix those while I'm redoing weapon
and item placement. Anyway, keep and eye for it, the DL link should be
up soon.

That looks kick ass good job can't wait to play!

for the record, my only real complaint was the maps connectivity. there were many places where i was forced to go around something, that could have easily been a through route. without taking more screens, it would be difficult to explain this, but essentially, you had 2 halves of a map. lots on the left side of the concrete wall, and lots on the right. but damned few avenues egress from left to right. i could even live with some of the squat/jump avenues, if when i got to the top, i could jump to the other side.

anywho's, if i could have a wish, it would be improved mobility.

Well Orph thats what I've tried to do for the beta 2 version.

The walkway across the canal works to link the main structure with that
area, as well as adding a bit more cover. The fence area over the
passage to the middle pit has been partially removed to provide better
conectivity between the crane platform and the generator pit area. The
bigger tunnels mean its possible to simply run through there which
increases the pace of the game and makes it another major route. Most
of the crouch jump areas have been replaced with steps to allow a
relatively smooth and fast exit from areas, but they are reasonably
thin requiring some concentration to keep from falling off.

Over all
I'm happy with how the additions increase general connectivity
throughout the map, and in particular between the canal and the main
construction area.

Smith, my respect.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Agent Smith</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Most of the bugs, except for those damned pink shadows.
</DIV></DIV>

Are these pink shadows on your physics props? If so, check the ambience value of your light_env as that's what is used to determine prop shadow colour.
Looking forward to checking out your new beta btw, looks really impressive.

Is there a link to download your beta? I'd like to look at it from the gameplay standpoint. Thanks

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting brett5010</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Smith, my respect.
</DIV></DIV>

Ditto.
If nothing else, you should know me this much :smile:

I just wet my pants....

Respect for you smith!!

Hopefully as soon as this map becomes available for download, some major servers will put it up for rotation.

Hopefully as soon as this map becomes available for download, some major servers will put it up for rotation.

Here's hoping.

I have considered the ambient lighting being responsible for the pink
shadows keved, but the problem there is that the ambient lighting is
more of a purple colour, which is present in the shadows cast by static
props. Only the physics objects, weapons and items cast this wierd
shadow.

Thanks for the encouragment guys, very much appreciated. It's almost done now.

I will be very interested to see how it fares in terms of FPS, and with the HL2 engine borking most maps when more than 12-14 people join a server. ie) Ones like Rebar & NP_Petrol, Lockdown do ok with 16, but Torque, Watergate, Depot_rc1, and many others that look great become unplayable lagaramas. I have 16 players in my server much of the time now, so I'll try it out when it's released. keeps finger crossed :smile:

Well you might find the fps to be a bit low on a system that isn't that
good, my system included. I can put that down however to the fact that
we only had a month to build the map right after the release of the
game. Myself and a number of other people over-estimated the
capabilities of the new engine, buying into Vavle's hype about how
f**king awesome it was and how much you could do, and discovered that
holy s**t, it isn't as f**king awesome as they said.

That in mind kind of consider it a first map of soughts, an extreme
test of the Source engine. On that note however, the lowest framerates
in my map are only slightly lower than the low points in dm_lockdown
which, compared to the level of complexity and detail in my map, is
crazy. In a good way though.

Oh, and it turns out it was the ambient light making the shadows pink,
I'd changed the colour and didn't remember. Anyway, if I select a gray
instead the map becomes too dark and loses a lot of its feel.

Oh, and it turns out it was the ambient light making the shadows pink,
I'd changed the colour and didn't remember. Anyway, if I select a gray
instead the map becomes too dark and loses a lot of its feel.

For ambient light, I suggest a grey, or a very slight tint to the grey.
So if you wanted warmer make it a slight orangy/reddish tinge to it.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Agent Smith</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Oh, and it turns out it was the ambient light making the shadows pink, I'd changed the colour and didn't remember. Anyway, if I select a gray instead the map becomes too dark and loses a lot of its feel.
</DIV></DIV>
Thought it was as I had the same issue in NP_Refinery. I'm finding it's a balancing act to juggle this ambient value; a colourless value and the prop shadows look ok but the lighting throughout the level is grey & lifeless, but too much colour in the value and the prop shadows look totally unrealistic. A separate value for prop shadows would have been nice...

Well I've finally
gotten the beta 2 done and its now available for the general public.
I've had it up on the steam forums for a bit while the SnarkPit's been
down, but now its up again I can get some decent commentary, and
hopefully I won't have to repeat myself hundreds of times because
some stupid f**kers can't read!

Screenshots:

See next page for screens (blame Orph)http://img201.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img201&image=dmhydrob20028b9xo.jpg

Download from Here:

http://files.filefront.com/DM_HYDRO_B2/;3802345;;/fileinfo.html

Enjoy

my god smith, do you truly not understand "Optimized screen shots"

i do however love the improved sections.. don't misunderstand.

whispers less than 100k bud.. less...

[edit] one observation: culverts rarely look "bored" as with yours, they are jointed additions to the network. try to make the additions look realistic. some sort of a transition is needed.

Sorry Orph, the screens were a bit of a rush. I even shrunk em down and
everything. I think at the time it was a bit of payback on some
assholes on the steam forums. Give me a bit and thy wish will be
granted. (I usually optimize them, I swear!)

I'm not quite sure what your talking about, culverts and such. If you
could explain and perhaps point it out on my overly bloated screenshots :smile: .

its very difficult for me to describe, but your branching holes look like they were drilled into.. or bored.

make the junctions distinct, like this screen shot above.

hope that made sense?

[edit] look at the black one on the left here: http://img201.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img201&image=dmhydrob20008b2fr.jpg

Here are the optimized screenshots:

I see what you mean there Orph. They are actually like that, its just
the lighting (or lack of) probably makes it seem like its a straight
bored out hole. The pipe props which extrude some aren't being brightly
lit, making it hard to see them.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Agent Smith</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext> I think at the time it was a bit of payback on some assholes on the steam forums. </DIV></DIV>

hmm, so. I take it the level of professionalism is lacking on the steam forums that you have come to expect around here?
would you mind quoting some of the feedback you received? I am genuinely curious to see how they responded to this map. If it was negative, I would be insulted.. as I have already critiqued it with glowing acceptance.

I am able to consistently get 800x600 screencaps below 80kb in
photoshop, even with a quality setting of 7 or 8, which is still fairly
decent. Of course, I realize not everyone has free access to
photoshop :o

When I did the same screencaps in paintshop, they came out at something like 200k, lol :smile:

Look in the last pic you show there... theres a combine spray on the rock surface which looks completely wrong and out of place... might wanna fix it.

Thanks Myrk, I didn't notice that. It'll go on the list of little things to fix.

Here's a link to the thread on the steam forums Orph if you want to take a gander.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=243053&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

The good stuff starts on page 2.

Here's my personal favorite Orph. Kind of kills the chances of more people downloading it doesn't it.

M|k33[K-9] -
"There are definitely some strong points to the map, but I am looking at
this from the perspective of it being a DM map, and IMHO the negatives
far outweigh the positives... to the point where I could not recommend
this map, nor run it on my server."

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M|k33[K-9]

[size=16]??[/size]

Registered: Sep 2004

Location:

Posts: 358</td>
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<a name="post2249756"></a>


Says the man who hasn't got a map to his name. Lucky I didn't want my map on his server, otherwise I would have looked quite the fool.

Lol, what an asshole, your map is superb and anyone who insults it has to deal with me!

Keep up the great mapping!

Lol, what an asshole, your map is superb and anyone who insults it has to deal with me!

\o/ - Dealing with you shouldn't be too hard habboi. :smile:

Anywho - This map r0x completely. Everything seems so polished, and I think the way to get the RPG is perfect. It is useless where you get it, and the player must take a risk. It doesn't seem too long of a journey to get there and back to me.

Unfortunately, that guy on the Steam forums obviously doesn't know what he is talking about. He probably isn't a mapper, and is talking from a player's point of view. A player with a microscopic brain he may be, but nevertheless still a player. After all, you can't please everyone, eh?

The frame rates for me weren't as bad as Overwatch: And that map seems to be played heaps (I suppose the fact that there are only 2 maps kinda helps) - But I predict Overwatch will continually be played even as new official and unofficial maps come out. Hopefully, this map shall be the same.

I'd recommend this map to anyone, and will be a favourite map to play between me and my friends.

Awesome work Agent Smith. :biggrin:

Thanks for the support guys :smile: .

Wow that is an awesome map - yer skillz are mad!

I wish people were playing it right now - haven't gotta play it with anybody yet

Good job and luck in the competition!

MRE

This is the feedback I left on the Steam forums after playing Hydro. Smith, you've already read this but maybe it will stimulate some further discussion amongst the wise sages here. Hydro is a terrific level - we're having a blast playing it on our 4 PC LAN here, but not without its problems imo.

• There is a lot of jumping required to traverse the layout when above ground level, frequently on narrow ledges, and potentially under the watchful gaze of snipers hunched in dark corners. This was pretty frustrating tbh. A tactic used by many was to risk getting the Xbow, find a dark corner on the other side of the water, and then rack up a bunch of easy kills (of people struggling jumping onto blocks etc).

• Run the RPG gauntlet and it isn't useable until out of the sewer system. It wasn't long before I didn't even bother trying to get it, or going into the sewers at all (entirely due to having to crouch). When in possession of the xbow, magnum or combine MG with grenades, it was very easy to get some cheap kills in the sewers.

It is very impressive though, no doubt about it, but the layout is unfortunately yielding some pretty big gameplay issues (though as you say there's not a great deal you can do about the performance, apart from removing some dynamic props maybe ).

Here are some explanations for the jump crouch area's in case you missed them in the steam forums:

Most of the area's that have small easy to run up steps used to be jump
crouch steps, which I changed. The other ones are really only part of
the construction, not necessarily major paths, though some can be used
to get to areas. It's really a case of use them at your own risk, as
there are other routes.<br style="font-style: italic;">
<br style="font-style: italic;">

A number of the jump crouch areas you pointed out actually aren't
major, or even minor, paths. Some of them can be used, but they're
mainly there for aesthetic quality.

If you don't like the RPG trap, oh well :smile: .

I didn't mind the RPG trick at all. I just jumped in from above, grabbed it, crawled through the pipe, and went up the rather skinny set of stairs in the next area.

This didn't take long at all for me, so I can't see how people could say it was too long.

Thank you Trapt, thats what I've been trying to get at on the steam
forums since I posted the map, but no one seems to be listening. It's
not much of a trap at all, it just requires that you watch your back
for a few seconds while you crawl through. It's no worse than the RPG
trap in lockdown, but no one has mentioned that.

It's no worse than the RPG trap in lockdown, but no one has mentioned that.

I quite like the trap in Lockdown - It adds to the tension and the feeling of never being safe when grabbing the RPG. The way it is in your level is quite similar, and it is what mappers should strive for: A decent trap so people have to take a risk to get the RPG.

You always have to watch your back and be careful. The way you have it, I think, takes about the perfect amount of time it should take to get the deadliest weapon in the game.

Also, the RPG isn't really effective where it is placed: Very much like Lockdown.

So I say well done on that. :smile:

It was quite a big risk you took when you included the trap - a lot of people wouldn't like it - But I think you did an excellent job.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Agent Smith</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

If you don't like the RPG trap, oh well :smile: .

</DIV></DIV>

tact bud, use tact.

i wouldn't close any doors by not using this small bit of interaction. keved is a master at his craft. i wouldn't shut any doors by disregarding this small thing.

the fact that some can use the rpg gauntlet effectively is a strong point in your favor.

feedback is opinions, use what you wish, and discard the rest, but never forget future correspondences. keved is not a door you would want to close.
/ 2 cents

I meant no offence to Keved or anyone else Orph, as I appreciate
constructive criticism, it's just that I've thought about it and have
decided not to change it.

Ultimately it would be a dead end no one would use if I removed the
RPG. I had toyed with the idea of putting the crossbow in there but
that would piss people of no end. I've had mixed reports about it, some
love it and some hate it.

If I seem a bit short with people its because the lack of the Snarkpit
and my subsequent stint in the Steam forums drove me to my wits end. I
had so many people saying the same thing over and over again even after
I'd explained it, or people who have no idea about mapping saying it
basically sucked arse, that I'm feeling a bit fragile, particularly
when it comes to this map. I didn't mean to snap, but if I hear one
more person complain because they got shot on steps that aren't steps,
even after I explained that fact, I'll scream.

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M|k33[K-9]

[size=16]??[/size]

Registered: Sep 2004

Location:

Posts: 371</td>
-->Thanks
for your commentary Keved, I've always liked your work, particularly
refinery and its very vintage HL gameplay and feel with source looks.
I'd also like to thank anyone else who provided constructive criticism,
thats CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.

Hey Orph, has it been orphorized yet?<a name="post2249756"></a>

i wasn't trying to tell you what to do, just attempting to keep you aware of all your options.

i do know the frustrations involved when people with little or no practical mapping experience try to give advice, or just plain disregard your map out of hand. they act as if PLAYING ALONE makes them an expert in the topic. :sad:

i will be posting comparative screenshots shortly, to illustrate my new machines abilities over my old one, and i chose this map to do it with, since i have the critiques screenshots in my pit to compare them too.

stay tuned :smile: mumbles the steam update is taking ages :sad:

Thanks Orph, I know you weren't trying to boss me around, just giving me a bit of nudge, which everyone needs now and again :smile: .

Looking forward to seeing what your new machine can do.

Old Machine

New Machine with even more to see. :smile:

other screens with FPS info.

1

2

3

There was no offence taken Smith. :smile:

I understand what you guys are saying about the likeness with the RPG trap in Lockdown, though unlike Lockdown, in Hydro's sewers you have to crawl through wider tunnels which are ideal for the AR2 bouncey grenade (certain kill), or people with the xbow/357 who're looking right down the length of one/two sewer tunnel sections and immediately snipe you. In the RPG trap in Lockdown players don't have to worry about either of these.

On the "steps that aren't steps" point, if there is a shortcut route people will use it, and raise it as an issue if they can't traverse the route easily. Here are a few examples...

• the only way to cross this gap below is balance along the narrow ledge. It's a case of either slowly moving along the side of the fence, or jumping down and finding another route up (safer but much slower). Wouldn't take much to add a few long planks of wood or something so players can run straight across.

http://img113.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img113&image=dmhydrob200004eh.jpg

• though there are other ways up onto the raised floor tier, at this side the quickest route up is jumping on these blocks...some of which requires jump+ducks. There is plenty of scope for adding extra steps so players can just run up there.

http://img113.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img113&image=dmhydrob200015al.jpg

There are also a couple of more areas above ground level where very minor changes would improve connectivity a lot.

Anyway, they were just suggestions. You can of course disregard any suggestions at your discretion. Goes with the territory of creating your own content...having to choose what suggestions to act upon. :smile:

Please do something with this tunnel . Add some more wires or change the light color or something. Looks too dull right now IMHO. :smile:

This map still says "99%"

is there a final version available?

I'm back at uni and therefore snowed under with work. I have some minor
fixes to make and then its done, though I'm not sure when I'll have the
time to do so. It's current version is fine, there is just a few minor
errors, like decals hovering in space and stuff that need fixing, so it
completely playable. Oh, and some suggestions by Keved I've got to consider, so just give me a bit of time.

Actually I've been hoping Gwil might whack it up on the server sometime so I can see how it plays.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Agent Smith</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
Actually I've been hoping Gwil might whack it up on the server sometime so I can see how it plays.
</DIV></DIV>
Duncan "whacks" more custom maps than gwil, ask him :biggrin:

Hey! I'm a busy/sleeping man :smile: Duncan also jinxes the server with crashes and whatnot :razz:

LOL its unfortunately true :biggrin: I'm quite the harbinger of server destruction it seems :sad:

Anyway, whichever server admins are around when we have a few maps to test will I'm sure put it up.