dm_mesabase

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The original mesabase for HL1dm still gets alot of playtime and I figured to make this my first portover to HL2dm. It will be my first of several portovers of my maps.







I've added large walls around the exterior of the map to give it a "prison-like" feel - where the first mesabase was more just out there in the void.

Comments welcome. My apologies for the larger photos.

From the screenshots there isn't much that I can say. It looks
really nice, and I especially like the high walls. One
suggestion, though, is to maybe add some subtle displacements on
the ground, like have it dip down in the middle a bit, it would kinda give it a more worn-down feel.

Looks really nice, although some junk along the wall with the big "Z" would be great. (middle picture)

Edit: Wow the high prisonlike walls gave me a great idea for my 3D-sky on my Dm_valley map. Thanks ^_^.

Maybe it won't lag this time...

Just kidding, Doc. It looks pretty decent, I'd say. It's gonna be a bitch to fight in the dark, though.

WTF is it after all this time you still peddle your wares at or near completion?

If we are good enough to see the pictures at that late stage, why not when its 20 or 50%?

After all this time, you are still committing the same general mistake which is, if you want our feedback, give us a damned download link when you are ABLE to IMPLEMENT our feedback :/

Personally, I would rather not see the map or acquire it when my suggestions can be used.

This is not a flame, it is basic mapping 101. :rolleyes:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I suggest more color in the light_environment - the level is really
monochrome compared to the orangeish sunset sky (that is kind of
overused in lots of maps these days) and it doesn't really fit well to
me. Oh, and I agree with Cassius: more light couldn't hurt, especially
on a multiplayer map.

And you can probably change those crates to something more creative /
detailed. It's Half-Life 2 after all, you have a lot more polys
to play with! :smile:

Oh, and a tip for optimization: func_detail like crazy. More than you
think you would. Valve would sometimes func_detail entire buildings.
The performance hit of having world brushes is a lot more than it used
to be.

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Sorry about not posting screens as the map progressed, and my bad for not doing the right thing.

This is where I took first screenshot of the map:



And after adding some things and changing the sky:



And where it sits now:



Hope that peaks your interest a bit as where it came from to where it is - and why just now I bring it to you for your input.

I'm readjusting the light environment a bit and have made damn-near the whole map a func_detail. Still having troubles with the +showbudget but am optimizing as we speak.

Thanks so far for input and again, my bad for not showing pics earlier.

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Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

Since maps for HL2 are entirely, or mostly dependent on machine sizes, it might be a good thing to post your specs and to turn on the netgraph so you can keep track of your FPS during your optimization steps.

This map may not be in as bad a shape as you think if you can see that your FPS are constantly above 30ish.

Sure, more is better, but anything above 30 is nothing to bitch about.. unless it takes an x800 or GT6800 to get them of course. :eek:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

It seems very very bright for spotlights.

Download now available - beta only - for input.

If ya can see any reason why the FPS are suffering in certain spots, please let me know. thanks.

http://www.snarkpit.net/pits/docrock/dm_mesabase.zip

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Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

I'd recommend changing your environment light colour to better suit the
dusk sky you are using. Only lighting inside would be completely gray.
It would also add a bit more colour to the map.

You also seem to be repeating that one deteriorating wall texture too
much. I'd recommend varying your texture usage (not necessarily the
texture theme) to add more interest and realism to the map.

Apart from that and what others have pointed out its getting there.

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Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'

First off, I want you to know that I am very hesitant to do this critique. Your history not only with me, but with Snarkpit in general does not accept criticisms well.

Secondly, I have very few good things to report about this map. Not because there are none, but I do not generally comment on "Good Points". That is not the purpose of a critique IMHO.

Thirdly, I am posting this in spite of my better judgment because I feel that with the new HL, that everyones past events in HL1 should be, not exactly forgotten, but put aside in favor of a new beginning. How you accept this critique will forever establish your stay here throughout HL2.

Fourthly, I can see this map being played. I cannot see it doing so in its current form, BUT I can see it played.. Assuming you can make the necessary alterations.

This is your new start Doc. What you do with it, is entirely up to you.

MesaBase

I would like to stress, this is 100% opinion only and any/all portions of it can be completely ignore with no hard feelings incurred. However, if my critique is poorly received, or ignored, the future of any Doc Rock maps may not fair well with regards of any future critiquing. After all, why would I, or anyone do another?

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Good points on the critique there. I hope Doc takes them into account. However, I disagree about the tree up high and the tower. I think they should stay.

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http://maze5.net

I would also like to mention, belatedly, that I ran this map on my old machine this morning.. Its config is:

1.8 P4
512 pc2100 ram
Radeon 9000 64meg forced to run at DX9.0

This map ran at a solid 30+ FPS with no slowdowns below as far as I could ascertain.

/update.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

First and foremost I'd like to thank you guys for the feedback. Thank you.

I appreciate the new beginning and will do well to try and earn your respect.

Nice review, Orph. Very professional. I've done what I can with a few of the things you've suggested.

Fixed the ladders. Now they are models, and added another at the end where the garage door is.

Fixed the landscaping and added some bumps here and there. The road is now not completely flat, but flat enough where a vehicle could still drive over it. Also added a bump here and there on the grassy areas.

The grass hanging over - is something I cannot change whereas it is in the texture itself. I like the grassy look of the map - and will probably keep it as is....so we'll have to live with the sprite hanging over in those spots - the grass also grows out of some steps in spots and out of some walls. It's just the texture...and something only we mappers would notice and not the casual gamer.

I'll add more later...going to lunch now at work...but again, thanks for the feedback. Will add more later after work and try to upload some new screens.

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Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

I touched on only a few things noteworthy. There were more, but.... When I noticed the length of the negativity I was posting, I decided to cut it to its present length in the hopes of not only getting along, but more that I was hoping some others would comment.

Our past is preventing this map from receiving the attention it would otherwise have gotten.

If no one else comments on the other stuff before days end, I will finish my critique and allow the chips to fall where they may. Hopefully you will continue to post in an acceptable fashion so our continued correspondences do not deteriorate to their former level.

I personally would rather our more gifted members critique this map. (hint,hint guys)

I will endeavor to post something positive next round.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I haven't downloaded your map yet (I will try to after work) but as for
the grass sprite problem, why don't you add a small concrete trim along
the sides of the grass areas, to keep the grass sprites from
overhanging awkwardly like they do in Oprh's shots?

Addicted to Morphine said:
I haven't downloaded your map yet (I will try to after work) but as for the grass sprite problem, why don't you add a small concrete trim along the sides of the grass areas, to keep the grass sprites from overhanging awkwardly like they do in Oprh's shots?

I could, but my bet is that the grass would still show thru the trim. I will give it a go.

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Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Just going to keep this short and sweet.

I didn't like all the static crates all over the map. Its the new
era! lets see some physics crates and some more props to toss around.

The lighting could use a little more brightness, it was a little too dark (even for my taste).

The FPS was great! I was hitting anywhere from 30(normal for me) to
100+, so like orph said, you have alot of room to gussy up your level.

I also think you need a sky box, just some far off objects to make your level feel like it isn't free flying.

onto the pictures!

<a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/drglass/crit/dm_mesabase0004.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

I feel that this glass should break, or you need to make it look
stronger. There are a handful of places where the glass looks
weak, but is infact unbreakable.

<a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/drglass/crit/dm_mesabase0005.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

I dont understand why there would be grass ontop of this wall, and
since the player cant even see the top why not put a nodraw texture
there? Free up even more resources.

<a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/drglass/crit/dm_mesabase0011.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

that brings up my next point, you put a big skybox around the whole
level! I know its a beta, but just be sure to fix that up. Also,
nodraw any surface that the player cant see, like the floor of the
unreachable tower.

<a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/drglass/crit/dm_mesabase0006.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

This looked too thin. Also, players will expect this to be movable so make it a prop, or make it look heavy.

<a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/drglass/crit/dm_mesabase0008.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

Again, why is there dirt and grass on the roof of this thing?

<a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/drglass/crit/dm_mesabase0012.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

This decal doesn't look good



same with this one, its a hole with broken wood... in a concrete wall.

<a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/drglass/crit/dm_mesabase0013.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

just an example of empty rooms. pipes, decals, props, and some diffrent types of lights.

Looking great so far, way more detail is needed. Lucky for you, there is alot of room to expand.

Personally, I think the light level is nigh on perfect for the setting, I wouldn't alter it but.. Not having a decent skybox is ruining the effect. I would give some serious thought as to adding some sort of a sky.. You could make those outside towers and the water tower inside it and increase the FPS tremendously.

Also, Adding some ambient items that have nothing to do with gameplay would increase this map 10 fold. More things like generators and power lines, Water pipes and gas meters would be cool.. I would truly consider either losing the humming noise, or turning it down sever octaves cause just doing a critique was annoying enough, I cannot imagine fragging it at that decibels for much longer.

Positive notes: I know I said I would find some, but the maps current state makes it difficult.. Connectivity, besides the earlier mentioned ladders I saw no other issues noteworthy.

Now, on to the critique.. As before, ignore what doesn't fit your plans.

Critique Continued

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The best things in life, aren't things.

For those of you whom might hold some doubt that I always push "form" over "function", allow me to clarify something.. "You are mistaken"

I think if a map reaches its intended goal, then whatever form it takes is the right one.

look at these screens...





THESE SCREENS are of my current favorite map.. I can play it over and over again. It is ugly as homemade sin, but it is so damned fun to frag in. I wouldn't recommend over 4 players but still, 1 on 1 is fun as hell.

You will notice that I am not exaggerating, it is ugly.. But it plays.

Anywho's, to set your minds at ease, I think Docs map can be made to frag well, AND look good.. In its current state, it just won't achieve either..

/ 2 cents.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Ok here's an updated version.

Lots of changes made. I know about the sky clipping thru the tower and a misaligned texture, but I wanted to get this out to you guys for a lookover before I hit the sack.

Changes:

added more static props.
added more decals and changed the ugly ones.
changed the grass texture.
rebuilt alot of the exterior of the map/added nodraw texture.
lost the box of sky around the map.
worked all ladders to be models and not textures.
made almost every building a func_detail.
made the ground bumpy here and there.
reworked some textures on walls.
did more too...cant remember it all hehe

Want to change still:

adjust the ambient sounds.
work on the skybox.
adjust texture alignment.
lower the fps more.

I'm not going to add any more props. IMO, the map has enough and I dont wanna crowd it any further. I really dont like so much to throw around...even tho it's fun...but I dont like the maps of HL2 that much because so many of them seem so crowded.

Anyways - again thanks for the feedback and here's the newest version.

http://www.snarkpit.net/pits/docrock/mesabase_v2.zip

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Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

I haven't played this but is this set in the middle on no-where or a
populised city? If it's the latter then I think you would need some 3d
skyboxes.

DocRock said:
Want to change still:

adjust the ambient sounds.
work on the skybox.
adjust texture alignment.
lower the fps more.

I know what you meant, but its funny none the less. Many of us still think "r_speeds" when we say it. :biggrin:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Just looking at the pics, I would say you should add more detail brushwork. Some trim around doors would look better, for example. Or rather than use one big brush for a wall, use a few, so that you can use a different texture at the bottom to make it look more detailed. Maybe use some curved architecture so it's not all so squarish.

Basically... and I can't believe this is me telling Doc this... I think you... need to use more polies... OH GOD I SAID IT I FEEL SO DIRTY!!

:wink:

(bah having this 6800GT is going to make judging map fps pretty hard for me eh?)

(bah having this 6800GT is going to make judging map fps pretty hard for me eh?)

Damn you and my dream card :wink: .

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Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'

<DIV class=quotetitle>? posted by $loth</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I haven't played this but is this set in the middle on no-where or a populised city? If it's the latter then I think you would need some 3d skyboxes.
</DIV>
I dont wanna use any of those building props that ya see in 99% of all the HL2dm maps out there...

Realistically, if this were a real place...with the high walls, ya wouldn't see alot of stuff other than the towers over the edges and maybe some tree tops of the trees outside the walls....

I spose I could add some smoke from chimneys around...or maybe the tops of homes...

I really wanna stay away from those static skyscrapers tho - and I'm definitely not gonna put in that huge combine tower.

? posted by Jinx
Basically... and I can't believe this is me telling Doc this... I think you... need to use more polies... OH GOD I SAID IT I FEEL SO DIRTY!!

LOL!!! Good one - but for some reason it doesn't feel right using so many polies because the +showbudget doesn't seem to agree with it...

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Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

Here are some final beta shots.











Thanks for all the feedback thus far.

Looking to release this soon...making final adjustments here and there and tweaking the fps.

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Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

I just had an idea for the ground. It looks like the kind of surface where I would expect to see the occassional weed between the cracks.
I believe this can be done with the addition of a VMT file ("%detailtype"?).

Architecture time-

The concrete walls with the dots on them that you are using are whats known as "cast in situ" reinforced concrete, its where a grid of metal is made (like a 3D mesh) and concrete is poured into place. The combination of concrete and steel is symbiotic- the concrete is britle and doesn't bend, the steel bends so it forms a decent structure that can span quite amazing forms.

Now- the small dots all over it are where the form work was placed. Basically its like 2 temporary walls placed either side so you can pour the concrete. The dots are left overs of where the formwork has been, and sometimes the dots have steel poking out of them (in more industrial, dangerous situations). The dark, dirty edges are the tops and sides where air and dirt tends to get to sometimes in the casting process.

Now that I have given you this knowledge, go back and re-align the textures so it makes sense :razz:

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-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

Myrk- said:
Architecture time-

The concrete walls with the dots on them that you are using are whats known as "cast in situ" reinforced concrete, its where a grid of metal is made (like a 3D mesh) and concrete is poured into place. The combination of concrete and steel is symbiotic- the concrete is britle and doesn't bend, the steel bends so it forms a decent structure that can span quite amazing forms.

Now- the small dots all over it are where the form work was placed. Basically its like 2 temporary walls placed either side so you can pour the concrete. The dots are left overs of where the formwork has been, and sometimes the dots have steel poking out of them (in more industrial, dangerous situations). The dark, dirty edges are the tops and sides where air and dirt tends to get to sometimes in the casting process.

Now that I have given you this knowledge, go back and re-align the textures so it makes sense :razz:

That texture has been changed long ago lol

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Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

I've had a quick look round and taken note of a few things (see screenshots below). In addition, there's a few things you might want to consider...

• Don't know if it's my computer playing silly buggers, but none of the doors open - I just walk right through them like a ghost.
• Make your mind up about the crates - some are throwable, while others are not.
• I emptied entire clips of bullets into the windows, and they refused to break.
• Brushwork is straight out of HL1. Loads of room for improvement - especially the interiors. They're far too sparse and i've personally seen more detail in HL1 maps.
• Exteriors. Far too angular - with no life. Look at any real-life building, and it's not just walls. There's all sorts of supports, trims, pipes etc. stuck to them.
• Highlighted in two of the screenshots - texture transitions. You've got the facility to blend textures for a better transition. Use it.
• The ground also feels far too flat. I'd be quite proud of my lawn if it was as even as the grass in this map.
• Some poor texture choices that you need to look at. I'm not going to highlight any as you should be able to spot them yourself with a little effort.
• Get yourself a 3D skybox built.
• Not too bad but at times, it felt a bit like a killbox with a few buildings inside. You might want to review the layout a little to provide more cover.
• Add more life to it. It's some sort of military base - with a big warehouse, yet no vehicles to move all those crates about with.

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You Got To Get Through What You've Got To Go Through To Get What You Want But You Got To Know What You Want To Get Through What You Got To Go Through

The overall feeling is pretty good but it needs more variation texture wise.

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Thiago Klafke - Environment Artist
Digital Portfolio: www.thiagoklafke.com

DocRock said:
Looking to release this soon...

Ominous words this.. unless something drastic took place after the beta2, this map is far from release. :/

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The best things in life, aren't things.

DocRoc, in the first picture Hawkins shoes RC.

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-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Myrk-</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>DocRoc, in the first picture Hawkins shoes RC.</DIV></DIV>

I dont have any idea what ya mean by that.

<DIV class=quotetitle>? posted by Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting DocRock</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
Looking to release this soon...

</DIV></DIV>
Ominous words this.. unless something drastic took place after the beta2, this map is far from release. :/

</DIV>Yep, and George Bush said we'll be leaving Iraq soon too. hehe

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Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

It's come a long ways...

from here..............



to here...................

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Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

Here's some fresh shots of dm_mesabase. Alot of changes here.

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Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

Try lowering the scale on some of those floors..

Its filling up nicely.. keep it up :smile:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

As Orph said, watch your texture scale. It seems a bit high in a fair
few places, so remember to keep it at 0.25x for the most part.

In shot 4 it looks like that bullethole in the glass is freakin'
massive. Is that glass scaled up much? Dunno if that has an effect on
these things (wouldn't have expected it to), but it looks wierd and I
don't know why else that would be the case. In the last shot, the
texture used on those ceiling supports is a bit too "vertical" and so,
in my opinion, it looks wrong when used on a predominantly horizontal
object. It might look wierd changing it since it would then differ from
the walls, but I think its worth testing.

All in all its progressing very nicely :smile:

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

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Final beta tests going now.

Download link available very soon. Watch this spot!

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Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

This is final release of dm_mesabase.

http://www.snarkpit.net/pits/docrock/dm_mesabase.zip

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Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

If your planning to release a nother version of this map you should
realy re-think the spawn points. Most of the spawns are in a spot where
your instantly getting shot or spawn dead. Thats my only complaint
cause this map rocks I just wish you could aviod getting spawn killed
when playing with only 10 people.