HL1 vs HL2

Another poll- did you prefer mapping for HL1 or HL2? I find the HL1 days were far more fun, mainly due to the ease of customization, and mapping. It didn't matter so much if the map didn't look amazing 'cus no one elses looked real. But now HL2 is out I don't see the point in mapping for HL1, kinda dissapointing really.

However I like HL2 mapping, but the weapon set is boring and doesn't lead to that great gameplay... I also feel that CS and HL2 look too similar, and theres a lack of some strange alien world textures.

Anyone else think along these lines? Which do you prefer and why?

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-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

i've never mapped for hl2 (yet). mapping for hl1 is cool, but it's too limited -_- so i think mapping for hl2 should be awesome
what if we had a new hl1 engine.. that can run hl2 maps... with same weapons.. em... nevermind

<div class="forumtext">i've never mapped for hl1 (yet). mapping for hl2 is cool, and unlimited -_- so i think mapping for hl1 shouldn't be awesome
what if we had a new hl1 engine.. that can run hl2 maps... with same weapons.. em... nevermind

I didn't wanna word my own post :smile:

</div>

French Toast said:

<DIV class=forumtext>i've never mapped for hl1 (yet). mapping for hl2 is cool, and unlimited -_- so i think mapping for hl1 shouldn't be awesome
what if we had a new hl1 engine.. that can run hl2 maps... with same weapons.. em... nevermind

I didn't wanna word my own post :smile:
</DIV>

You needed an "Other" Myrk..

Methinks HL2 will catch up to HL1... IF they can just work out the bugs.

I vote, "Other"

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The best things in life, aren't things.

It was much easier to make something impressive in HL1. Most everyone
was familiar with the engine limits, and custom textures were much
easier to create. I could even make simple static models for myself!
But that was after a few years. Who knows what will happen with HL2?
And with the recent announcement for Sin Episodes, maybe we'll have
another game to map for! The HL2 community isn't even a year old yet,
so I guess/hope it just needs some time to mature, much like fine wine.
:wink:

HL1 for me, in particular TFC. There is something about HL2 that isnt
quite working out for me. Its not increased complexity cause have
mapped for other advanced games than HL1, but have never dropped so
many map ideas before. Hopefully that will change with Fortress Forever
:smile:

I went for HL1 (ooo makes an evan poll) mainly because it is so much
harder to impress / evan make a map on HL2. it's not hard to make a map
better than what HL1 single player was. But to make a map better than
HL2 single player is just way out of "my" question.

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I never finished a map for HL1, but played with Worldcraft then (and
mapped for Quake 2), and now with Hammer and HL2, i feel that HL2 is
the same as HL1, but 'better'. I think that you can make the same map
for HL1 as for HL2, but the difference is that in HL2 you can put more
cool effects, and there are better textures, prop models, lights and
all that. The problem is that you have to spend more time to make the
HL2 map 'better' than HL1.

I have a hypothesis, correct me if I am wrong.

I think the lack of anything HL2 (at least here at Snarkpit) is the lack of any maps with downloads available. Consider, the majority of anything we see is either images or 100% completed.

Once upon a time, everything we saw had our full attention because we all participated (or had the option to, we could be active or inactive by choice). Now all we get to do is look from the sidelines.

Personally, I am fully cognizant of the thinking that the bigger a website gets, the less personal it also gets but... I think that if we applied just a few of our old morals to the newer members we would generate more interest in HL2 mapping.

The problem is IMO, most of the newer member have not taken the time to read through our maps forums and seen all the high level critiques we have made in the past. Sad really, but I wish we had put more pressure on Lep to include quality feedback critiques in the site and made them "On Par" with "Reviews"

I bet if we polled the new members, they wouldn't have a clue as to what a critique is, and those that did know, wouldn't know what a quality one looked like. Tis why none of them request any.

HL2 won't ever be on par with HL1 until the community creates the conditions necessary to have it so. Ask yourself this.. When was the last time more than 10-15 members actively participated in a n00b map? I am not talking about idle comments, I mean in depth. We used to have that all the time.

/observational commentary.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Very true orph, well said. I'd almost forgotten those days, sadly.

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

Thanx Duncan.. I needed that. :smile:

Another small note. Few members seem to be using the personal rating system anymore..

Perhaps we should begin a campaign to inform the new members of exactly what Snarkpit stands for..

How does this sound.. We get Lep to add a page, so that when you submit a new map it informs you of things like critiques and such that you can request, or utilize in your maps creation.. The page would be full of links like to tutorials and to pages with exceptionally written critiques.. The page couldn't be closed for say... 3-5 minutes to assure that either you read the links or are annoyed enough to not submit.. preferably the first option. :smile:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

While I'm not sure I agree on the time delay, I think thats a pretty
good idea. A demonstration of sorts, showing what the snarkpit can do,
and how well it can be used.

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

ReNo said:
While I'm not sure I agree on the time delay,

Sad, but true.. People whom are inclined to read don't need the incentive, and people who aren't will only wait the time and ignore it anyway.

I will be home today. Perhaps I will pick a random map and critique it.. Of course I will chose a map that clearly states something along the lines about "opinions welcome" :wink:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I prefer mapping for hl2, when i was mapping for hl1 i just started and
i sucked greatly because i didn't really understand all the entities
and stuff.

so i had a break, while having a break hl2 comes out, i buy it and i end up here mapping for hl2.

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Boo f**king Hoo

Natus said:
I prefer mapping for hl2, when i was mapping for hl1 i just started and i sucked greatly because i didn't really understand all the entities and stuff.
so i had a break, while having a break hl2 comes out, i buy it and i end up here mapping for hl2, and I still suck balls.

There, I fixed it for you bud..

/runs laughing maniacally

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I like the oldschool ways, or the HL1 ways, where the whole map
depended on your skill and your skill alone. Nobody else, perhaps only
textures... These days it sucks - some random noob makes a hollow box,
fills it with cool props and people think it is cool. Old days you
would be lolled for this, but now... it really sucks.

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HL2 tutorials 'n' stuff: http://madedog.pri.ee
217.159.236.34:27050 - CSS Server - Clean | koffer.ee

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Boo f**king Hoo

Natus said:

STOP!!.. I have already changed twice today.. You are adding to my diaper budget.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I remember the old school mapping, you had to make the props yourself, every map I see uses the same grafitti decals, the same tables and chairs...

I'm more used to HL2 now sadly, HL1 was where I started and it is thanks to HL1 that i'm safe at home with HL2.

Cough Opinions are welcome cough

Just as in the HL days...

Then we hated prefabs. Now we hate the overused prop models. Nothing
has significantly changed, really. Except for production times maybe.
I'm going to create my own materials again and I'm going to learn
modelling for HL2 just as I did once for HL. I see it as part of the
mapping process.

As for 15 people actively participating in the mapping process, I don't
think I've known those times on the Snarkpit. I wasn't such an early
member, and I've hesitated for some time to really get involved since I
found the Snarkpit to have a sort of 'elite' image.

Anyway. I'd like to see such things happen again. There aren't a lot of
active threads in the mapping board these days. What about throwing in
my contest map one of these days for critique or a beta-test? Sure, it
may push others to improve their submission (or calm them down... :razz: )
but hey, maybe it's just fun and it'll help me to improve my skills and
release another map.

// Which means I should provide some more help for other maps as well, yeah...

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

What we really need is a little system of people prepared to critique.
Then we have maps randomly selected (from people who have submitted
their map to be looked at) say once a week and assigned to that person
to critique for a week. Hopefully people (especially newer members)
won't get arsey from being critiqued.

I know there is a good bunch of people including myself who will be willing to volunteer.

Orph the problem with the Snarkpit atm is that Lep is far too busy with his personal life- hes actually becoming a teacher in a nearbye school for science for 1 year, plus he does websites for about 10 different people. If I could code PHP I'd gladly take on some of the responsibility, but I can't. Maybe we need someone in addition to Lep to be a full admin of the website, so theres other people that can help deal with these things aswell as Lep. A big problem aswell is that alot of the other admins aren't really around, we need more with Gwil in Prison world... Anyone wanna take up the challenge of coding the site more? You'd need to be advanced in PHP, and trustworthy- I know Scary_Jeff has done alot of this stuff in the past, but I'm not sure if he'd wanna semi run the website.

As for the map participations, I think once we get the Mosiacs back up and running, then the community will pull itself together again. We also need a kinda disclaimer or sticky in the maps forum explaining how we deal with things here.

I just feel that with HL2 the map build time being longer has slowed the community, I thought it was already long enough in HL1, but obviously things will be slowed down a tad.

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-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

Myrk- said:
Maybe we need someone in addition to Lep to be a full admin of the website, so theres other people that can help deal with these things aswell as Lep.

No offense Myrk, I know he is your brother and by rights YOU should know him better than we do but... Lep doesn't have the "Sharing" gene..

There are plenty of people here who have not only the know how, but the personality to "assist"

Lep... is Lep. shrugs
/nuff said.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Lol, I know what you mean, but in times like these he may be open to the idea. As I said he has to code so many other peoples' websites, but then again Snarkpit is his child hes been caring for... I'd watch it though, social services may take it away :razz:

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-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

Myrk- said:
Lol, I know what you mean,

I meant no disrespect.. I would do anything within my powers if he requested something of myself..

Bottom line though.. Lep had years to recruit/train alternative members for this.. His, mindset created this dilemma.

The coding is beyond me so it precludes my even offering.. Having a heart in the right place doesn't always suffice.

Chances are however.. Since most of the qualified people KNOW LEP.. you may not get any volunteers for the position.

Thankfully.. The site is stable and needs very little attention... Shows exactly how well the job was handled, and thats saying a lot.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I like the oldschool ways, or the HL1 ways, where the whole map
depended on your skill and your skill alone. Nobody else, perhaps only
textures... These days it sucks - some random noob makes a hollow box,
fills it with cool props and people think it is cool. Old days you
would be lolled for this, but now... it really sucks.

A hollow box with props can be cool. Half-Life 2 shipped with sections of levels that were just that. So do most retail games. It's in how you use them. Anyone can toss them into a box, true, but how many people can string them together creatively to make something that really adds to the quality of the scene as a whole? Far fewer.

Most props are stuff you could never do with the editor anyway; that's usually the point of making them (there can be others as well, but I don't know if they really apply to HL2). And, as levels get more and more detailed, it spares you the time of having to make every single railing, pipe, wire, and various other tedious bits (though admittedly I do prefer the Radiant patch mesh system for these as I hate being locked into pre-defined sizes/angles, one disadvantage to using models for pipes/rails/etc.).

As to the question at hand... HL1. While I've admittedly had little time to fiddle with HL2, what time I have spent is full of frustration and annoyance. Valve added some really cool stuff but I don't think they added the tool support to make it as pleasant as it should be. Being able to view your models in wireframe in a grid should be one of the most basic requirements of an editor. :razz: Oh, and a lot of their props don't line up on an even grid. I almost flipped out and killed something when I noticed that. :wink:

Of course, I also didn't realize how frustratingly slow the WC/Hammer interface really is until about a year ago. :razz: So I dunno.

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www.button-masher.net

Displacement surfaces did it for me. So handy to create terrain now,
instead of using the triangle method like in Reno's tutorial. (Good tut
nevertheless, Ren !)

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:: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer

I'd love it if there was a way to make models or props in hammer, like an entity almost. Make some nice intricate stuff to fit in your level (using a more detailed grid made for modelling but done on the map) then select the objects and just "make model". That would be class :razz: Texturing them would be a synch too!

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-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

you can import .vmf to xsi and texture them and stuff, then compile for use as a prop_something.

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Boo f**king Hoo

I say they are both about the same, HL1 you can impress people with simple brush work and the low level lighting. Custom "anything" is simpler (textures), but they don't look as good with out that nifty bump mapping.

While in HL2 you can imerse your self in the world and create a realistic picture using displacements (Their aplication is famonimal)/water/materials/physics. The only problem I see is that people are using the same props over and over again, it gets boring after a while. What needs to be done is have a way for model/material creation to be simplified.

Also the HL2 community is filled with new mappers, and all we see is boxy rooms with weapons/props slewn everywhere. HL2 mapping hasnt quite taken hold yet, but if given some time is might rise to the level that HL1 is at.

If anything im worried about how DM is practically dead, there are many reasons for this, some on valve's part, but a lot on the HL community as well.

As for the site, I think it isn't what it should be, interlopers has weekly tuts (alomost) and they are more centered around the mapping in general, while this site is more comprised of critiquing the maps that are submitted, and that scares people away, because of the harsh treatment everything is given.

Id also like to point out that when HL2 was released that the member number rised from 800 to 2200 in about 7 months. I ask myself if these 1200 members are contributing to the site (I know there are many "regulars" out there like Satchmo, Dr. Glass who know what they are doing), but there is just a surplus of people here not doing anything to help the site (me included). (If anything I miss the old days of when this community was more compact)

Id agree to another full time admin to work on the site, only problem is I know no one who is as good at PHP as lep is. I think that sufices as to whats been commented so far. More observations please.

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Posting And You

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting omegaslayer</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>while this site is more comprised of critiquing the maps that are submitted, and that scares people away, because of the harsh treatment everything is given.

</DIV></DIV>

I myself helped to initiate the system as it currently stands. If what advice we hand out is considered harsh, one begs to ask.. What kind of feedback were they getting prior to coming here?

Harsh may or may not be in the eye of the beholder but, when feedback truly does become harsh, many members speak right up and reign in the action pretty damned quick. No one usually gets abused in other words.

I take it kinda personal when someone calls into question "HOW" we do things here because yours truly has been fat in the middle of it all since practically day 1.

I may not be able to say "I DID THAT OR THAT" but I can be proud to be a piece of the way it now is.

IMO, if we scare people off.. screw them, they're pansies and we don't need their kind anyways..

/ rant

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I actually like the critiquing system that is here :smile: I guess I should have mentioned that in the begining, it filters out the "kill box people" if you will.

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Posting And You

omegaslayer said:
I actually like the critiquing system that is here :smile: I guess I should have mentioned that in the begining, it filters out the "kill box people" if you will.

Don't get me wrong, I know you were not complaining for complainings sake bud.. I just wonder what these missing members you speak of were thinking before joining?

My last real map was No_Patience.. To look at it now, you wouldn't know that it took me 6 hard weeks to produce.. Mostly because of the feedback I received while it was under construction. 6 weeks.. A very hard 6 weeks to..

Thankfully, I had a great support group. Its not one of the greatest maps here, but it can claim to have one of the biggest group of assistants in its creation. :biggrin:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
Once upon a time, everything we saw had our full attention because we all participated (or had the option to, we could be active or inactive by choice). Now all we get to do is look from the sidelines.

Personally, I am fully cognizant of the thinking that the bigger a website gets, the less personal it also gets but... I think that if we applied just a few of our old morals to the newer members we would generate more interest in HL2 mapping.

The problem is IMO, most of the newer member have not taken the time to read through our maps forums and seen all the high level critiques we have made in the past. Sad really, but I wish we had put more pressure on Lep to include quality feedback critiques in the site and made them "On Par" with "Reviews"

I bet if we polled the new members, they wouldn't have a clue as to what a critique is, and those that did know, wouldn't know what a quality one looked like. Tis why none of them request any.

</DIV></DIV>

Critiques were the best, and I do wish we had more of them around. I kinda have a feeling that the lack of... hmm, "betaism" you could say, is partially due to the complexity of the Hl2 engine -- once you make something, and look at all the hard work you went through to make it, having it changed or ripped out seems like a bit of a blow to the mapper.

Personally, I think Hl1 mapping is the best. It would be absolutely perfect if all HL games, (including HL2) used the simplicity of the Sven-Coop .fgd :rolleyes: since it gives mappers Hl2 like power without all the complex linking and parenting and so on.

And as Orph said, HL2 mapping will probably catch on more (especially with me) once valve fixes all the bugs in Hammer 4 :/

Plus, critiques were always fun to read =D

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

Well... indeed, the Displacement mapping is a cool feature of the
Source engine, but as one said already, there should be a way in Hammer
which would let you convert a good brushwork into a model, though. It
should not be that hard for a company such as Valve! There is nothing
that would make doubts fill my mind that way, since this another place
you can actually show off your skills of real detaily things!

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HL2 tutorials 'n' stuff: http://madedog.pri.ee
217.159.236.34:27050 - CSS Server - Clean | koffer.ee

You can do that Madedog, there is an export funtion that exports the
contents of the mapping file into a format readable by modelling
programs. It also exports displacements, so you can do nice smooth
objects.

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Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'

ive never done any mapping for hl1 which is a shame really. i would have really liked to get into it but now i would have that little hl2 in the back at mind nagging at me about how its better. so i had to go for hl2.
i would also really like to finish a map so i could hear some critique but i never gets done...

i would also really like to finish a map so i could hear some critique but i never gets done...

Well-known problem. I usually got stuck on the layout, so these days I
try to get a working layout prior to detailing my map. Gotta love those
dev textures... :razz:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

I think we need to agree- there are very, very few actual mappers, but alot of people who know how to create basic stuff in the game. Most "mappers" consider criticism harsh because they aren't prepared to learn or take the route.

Its like with an instrument, say guitar. There are many people who can play guitar, but in my eyes, not half of them are guitarists. If you critisize them they will just flare back at you and claim "its for fun", when you know they really wanna be good at it. Many people I know who learn guitar- I try and correct them and they will completely ignore my advice!

Some people just don't take criticism.

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-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

I've been playing guitar for 9 years now, and started a band, I like to
consider myself a guitarist :smile: , but I know what you mean. My
friend just started, and when I try to correct him he gets defensive.

Anyways. Idon't really consider myself a mapper. I played around
a lot and know how to make maps, but I've never really practiced enough
to be able to produce a quality map. I've just lost a lot of
motivation when there are easier things for me to do, with more payoff
in the short-term.

omegaslayer said:
HL2 mapping hasnt quite taken hold yet, but if given some time is might rise to the level that HL1 is at.

One problem is the lack of a large HL2 level reviewing website. I remember Radium was around from day one when HL1 was released and was a great resource to find quality levels. Level authors knew to submit their new levels to Radium, and HL1 gamers knew where to find new levels. Granted, the reviews were just one person's viewpoint and he may not have been right all the time, but it succeeded in getting levels out there and shone the spotlight on the better levels.

HL2 on the other hand - are there actually any HL2DM level reviewing websites at all? The only one I can think of is Ascendany, and even that is just a sentence or two on each levels, hardly a full fledged review. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fischmt/ascendancy/

This isn't helping with HL2DM's popularity. Just about the only way to find quality levels is to trawl through forum posts and wade through dozens of newbie or "just made for fun" efforts.

Whilst this isn't really answering Myrk's original question, I suppose it has some bearing since when creating levels for HL2 they aren't likely to be played as much even though they take longer to create (in my experience anyway).

Ahem...

/me kicks keved in the shins...

This was the biggest review site for HL1 plz! We crushed all who opposed us (such as Biohazard). Radium was a small tick on the snark of the pit :razz:

I agree with reviews though, we need to publisize them more on this site.

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-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

Well, I'd say that Snarkpit assumed Radium's throne after it became
inactive, but I don't really think we ever had the popularity of Radium
in its prime.

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

/me kicks ReNo in the shins

Traitor....

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-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-