Mapping as a career?

My class was doing a thing about finding careers and it got me thinking. Would it be possible to take your mapping experience into the job market? I also was wondering if the game companies actually use the same editors that the community does.

So lets start a discussion.

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Yes I spell bad, but remimber Mighty are the stupid.

Check out my drawings at http://half-dude.deviantart.com/

The short answer is yes.

Why wouldn't they use the same tools?

KFS works at Raven. I believe he was hired based on his experience with Hammer.
You really just need an impressive amount of knowledge on the subject and have plenty of good reference work.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Mapping is only a very small aspect of game design. The majority of the energy goes into AI programming and art works. I am saying this based on my knowledge from my game-designing friends.

so, you might want to hone your skills in other aspects of game design too.

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

Majority of energy going on AI programming? I think you'd be
surprised - games typically only have a couple of dedicated AI
programmers on a project, though obvously some call for more and some
call for less. It was until the past 5 years or so that it's even
common to have dedicated AI programmers. Designing an AI system
is certainly no easy task and
certainly can take a lot of energy, but the AI programmers make up only
a tiny fraction of the development team. The level design team would
almost always be larger.

Still, satch makes a good point that mapping isn't the only aspect of
game development you should look into. There are a wide variety of jobs
in the games industry, and even if you DO plan on going into level
design, you should at least try to gain an understanding of what other
aspects there are to game development, and what they entail. It will
make you far more hireable, for example, if you know what info the
environmental artist needs to make your new fence prop, or how to
describe in technical terms the new feature you'd like the tools
programmer to add to the level editor. Level design is quite often
building the bricks and mortar of a level, but will in some companies
involve lots of scripting work as well, which means it can be
beneficial to have some rudimentary programming experience too. Many
development studios won't use custom editors like hammer or unrealed
either - it's not uncommon to be expected to work in a 3D modelling
package like Maya or 3ds max - so you might wanna consider playing
around with some modelling at some point.

I don't want this to "scare you off" or anything, but rather open your eyes to what level design at career level could entail.

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

Mapping is a part of any FPS game but one would only need to look a short time to notice that the maps made by the great mappers did not work for HL1. The maps were good yes, but there are many better mappers outside the game. I have seen this true in quite a few games as well. There are some very amazing HL1 maps created by users. All of which outstrip the maps inside the game. So far however, I have seen very few maps compare to the team on the HL2 staff, but some user made maps are at least on par.

I would venture a guess that mapping by itself is but a tiny portion of creating a game so if you want to get into the market, I would say your chances are slim to none based on mapping talent alone. They obviously do not put a high priority on those positions.

I can only base my opinion on what I have seen. Maps created for most games must have other priorities involved than purely putting this wall here and that water there.

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There is no history until something happens, then there is.

Like ReNo said, there are other things out there other than hammer.
Hammer just happens to be redily availible to anyone. But the real meat
of level design lies in modeling programs actually. Just look at
Blizzard's Job page, their outdoor enviornment artists (fancy words for
ourdoor mapper) have you work in 3dS Max with a special plugin. Same
goes for Halo level design. They use modeling programs.

But dont let that scare you off. One of blizzards level design jobs
(for Starcraft Ghost, not WoW) says that you should have working
knowlege in Radiant, Worldcraft (hammer for the new people), and even
UnrealED.

That said you should dip your hands in everything. Even pull out the
Warcraft 3 editors, and the red alert editor. Getting more
experience will better your chances in the industry. Also get on a Mod
team. Half of Valve's employees are hired right out of the mod
community.

But I do have to say that you have to be good at it. The game industry
is getting compeditive. And they just dont have much room for the
mediocure designers out there.

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Posting And You

I currently have a temporary job doing mapping for an Indie game that I got from my experience with HL mapping + modeling + texture art + connections I made in the modding community. Its not even comparable to anything big like Raven or Valve, but at least my maps will be in a game that hits store shelves. Mapping is not something I want to do as a career though.

Anyways basically the answer to your question is yes - if you put in the time to become very good at mapping, make good maps, and talk to people in the community, you can get a job. Back 5/6 years ago everyone from the Quake modding community was getting hired. You look at the game-dev companies today, and so many of the level designers came from the mod community its ridiculous.

For the past couple years there's been a bout of hiring HL mappers/modders. In most of the HL mapping forums I hang out at there are at least a couple people I knew ever since the early days of HL mapping who got hired in the last couple years. I think there are a few (former?) Snarkpit members who are in industry, although aside from KFS they dont post anymore. However, you have got to remember that these people are the best of the best. Your maps have got to be good, and even then there are no guarantees.

I dunno about your plans in life, but definitely dont use "I wanna be a level designer" as an excuse to not study in school or whatever because regardless of what you do you will need that.

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http://maze5.net

Just look at KungFuSquirrel.

I am very interested in having a career in level design. I've
been trying very hard to hone my skills, I just need to release more
maps. But, hey, that's why I'm here.

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Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

<div><div>

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Crono</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>The short answer is yes.

Why wouldn't they use the same tools?

KFS works at Raven...</div></div></DIV></DIV>
KFS = Kentucky Fried Shicken?

or even kung fu squirrel :smile:

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i eat paint

The short answer is architecture. You don't have to make buildings once
you have your diploma. You can do anything from stage design for some
movie or theater to vehicle design. And, guess what, a mapping gig is possible with an
architects diploma. Plus you'd have an extra advantage at the job interview.

Getting a job in the gaming industry is VERY possible - but very much dependant on your willingness to PUSH YOURSELF. Even with schools like GuildHall in Dallas, or the Art Institutes (I went to Art Institute of Houston), where they actually focus on game design - the deciding factor in whether you get a job or not is YOU... not a diploma. This is an industry where you have to sell yourself, and be in the frame of mind to sell your skills.

Also - there is more and more of a great divide between Art and Design. This means that you are usually going to have to choose a path. Very seldom will you find a roll that lets you design and fully art a level - especially if you're doing singleplayer level design. So, that's a question to ask yourself. DO you love game design, or do you love game art? If you know exactly what you want, then the only thing keeping you from getting it is time and effort. My theory is that you can build up to a base professional skill level in roughtly 2-4 years, starting almost from scratch. It all depends on how dedicated you are.

I made the decision to persue a career in the game or animation industry roughly 5 years ago. I went from a job with 'pop-a-lock', unlocking cars, to working at the 3rd best small company in the U.S (Insomniac Games) - seeing a AAA game on store shelves with my name on it (Ratchet Deadlocked). It took me 4 years of dedicated work, and I might have been able to do it in 2-3, if I had been more focused on exactly WHAT I wanted to do.

Oh, I guess I should add this too. What got me my job - the reason I beat other designers who had MORE experience, was my Halflife Level Design. It wasn't even the quality of my work (although who knows where I'd be if it was subpar)...it was the obvious DRIVE and EFFORT that spoke through my work. Not only did I have an animation degree, I also had a whole seperate portfolio and knowledge of game design that gave me the competitive edge come interview time.

What I have noticed about people who have made it into the gaming industry is an unconsciouses lack of gratitude to those who helped get them there.

Sure, it takes a lot of hard word on the part of the person trying to get into the field but, its not a one person endeavor. I have noticed, not only in this thread but others similar on many sites that people who finally get into gaming are like beauty queens. They bask in the limelight, forgetting the beauticians that got them there. When I read their words its always full of "I's" I had to do this, or I had to do that.

It would be refreshing to see a website, or a personal biography sometime of a one of these individuals who thanked all the people who got them there. Not individually, although that would be ideal, but some footnote at the very least.

I have never seen a single event of this nature. THAT would be more impressive than seeing someone I knew, who's name made it onto a box.

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There is no history until something happens, then there is.

Hehe, you got a good game to your name Finger (Ratchet)....all I got was stinky ol' Rogue Ops :wink:

Half-dude, while the majority of game developers use proprietary tools, the concept and functionality behind them is generally the same as the two main editors available to amateur mappers. UnrealED with its negative space doo-dah, where you subtract stuff to make things, or your Hammer/Radient school with additions. Familiarise yourself with as many packages as you can. :smile:

Also, don't take this too personally, but you will also need to develop thicker skin and be willing to take on criticism without flying off the handle - cos in the games industry, you'll get a lot of it.

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You Got To Get Through What You've Got To Go Through To Get What You Want But You Got To Know What You Want To Get Through What You Got To Go Through

I get you completely Finger, what your saying seems to be my experience
so far. Not that I've got a level design job, but I'm currently short
listed for a level design position here in Australia.
I don't have a game design degree (one in graphic design actually, in
two weeks :biggrin: ) and my work is primarily amateur. However the fact my
work is always of a high standard and, despite uni, work and other
committments, I still manage to produce high quality work with some
regularity, has shown that I'm dedicated and passionate about it. I
think that sold me as much as my work. Of course you still need some
quality work, but I've only got 6 polished/finished maps, and a bunch
of bits, that I showed them.

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Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'

Finger said:
Also - there is more and more of a great divide between Art and Design. This means that you are usually going to have to choose a path. Very seldom will you find a roll that lets you design and fully art a level - especially if you're doing singleplayer level design. So, that's a question to ask yourself. DO you love game design, or do you love game art?

Right on the money there, Finger. After the 5 years I've been working in the gamedev industry, I haven't encountered anyone at all who has done BOTH the design AND art for a level. I've got a degree in Illustration so am from an art background and have built 40-something HL1/2 levels, but I've still only done design and scripting. As you suggest, typically people have to choose to follow an art OR design discipline.

The number of first person shooters in development using Valve's tech isn't very much at all - as Adam said most will use their own proprietary technology. Most gamedevs develop their own tech, tailored specifically to the game they're creating. Anyone looking to get into the gamedev industry definately shouldn't set their sights on specifically working with Valve's tech, because the likelihood of that happening is minimal.

Lastly, due to circumstances (family etc) you may have to take what you can. Not everybody lives down the road from Valve or id or any of the other big boys. You may have to take whatever you can find, even working on some poxy game that'll sink without trace. Still beats doing a "proper job" anyway. :biggrin:

satchmo said:
Mapping is only a very small aspect of game design. The majority of the energy goes into AI programming and art works. I am saying this based on my knowledge from my game-designing friends.

so, you might want to hone your skills in other aspects of game design too.

No, not really. I've worked on a commerical FPS title - we had 12 level designers, half a dozen level artists, and only 1 AI coder.

Perhaps one could argue that's indicative of the lack of progress in the enemy AI over the last several years, such is the lack of importance that studio managers place in hiring loads of AI coders! :smile:
But yeah, the more aspects of game development you've familiar with the better, most definately.

You don't have too many coders because it gets worse as you add them a
lot of the time. 2-3 often is more than enough. Otherwise especially
with code you get conflicts and/or the others don't know enough about
each other's coding style. Whereas something like mapping is a little
more global in such a way that multiple people can work on areas that
don't conlflict with others in any way other than general personal
style.

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Well I only talk about being a level designer because that seems to be the only job listed in the industry that I have experience with at all. What I REALLY want to do is concept art I just don't know If you can get a job just doing that.

Take a look at a concept I did for a new improved Spider Mastermind.



What do you guys think, do I have a chance? BTW I've finished this I just haven't scanned.

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Yes I spell bad, but remimber Mighty are the stupid.

Check out my drawings at http://half-dude.deviantart.com/

Hmm, personally I think it's good art but as far as I know, a concept
artist should be able to work with color and all too. I've seen
sketches like these from Ground Control II for example, but there's
also the great stuff that Feng Zhu and the like produce.

I think... it's not that I know too much about concept artists and how companies handle them... :smile:

Concerning mapping, I like the designers part more, though I'm capable
of doing the art part somewhat too (good textures just take a lot of
time which somehow I don't feel it's worth it, so obviously I like the
design part more).

I think it'd be good work to do this as a job. Sadly there's not a lot
of gamestudios in Holland and I don't really feel like moving to
another city, so I guess that diminishes my chances, but if I can get a
job, yeah... big gamestudio or not, as long as I can do something with
my creativity without seeing it getting lost I'd be happy. Only thing
that I'm not sure about with these kind of jobs is the time-stress. I'm
bad with that since I'm a perfectionist and can only have so many
projects at the same time running before I lock up, and I've heard some
horror stories about the game-bussiness in that regard. How worse is it
really?

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

All your art that I've seen has been nice Half-Dude, but re-drawing
existing ideas isn't gonna get you a job in a creative industry. You
should draw original work more often :smile:

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

Underdog said:
What I have noticed about people who have made it into the gaming industry is an unconsciouses lack of gratitude to those who helped get them there.

The question was 'is mapping a possible carrer?'. The answer is 'yes', an individual with drive and focus can carve out a career in Level Design, or Level Art. I stress the focus on INDIVIDUAL, because that's where it starts. Not everyone has a huge network of support to help them along the way. Does that matter? Maybe. Should someone without any help from family, friends, community, be dissuaded from following this carrer path? No. Therefore, I don't answer this question with "Thank god for all the help I had, or else I couldn't have done it".... I answer with "It took a TON of dedication and persistance" because for the individual asking the question - that's the important part.

Now, that said, without my family, friends, school, the gaming community, and even the good ole Snarkpit - who knows how much harder it would have been for me to get where I am. Would I have done it without the help and support? Yes, I like to think so. Am I grateful and thankful for the help? More than anyone can assume. I will, and do, turn around and give that same support to anyone else who needs it. (ugh..feels guilty for not giving enough map feedback... heads to map forum)

Finger, although it sounded like I was accusing I meant it as a general comment.

When I was much younger, I was a bit different than now. Big headed and arrogant. A very wise person took me aside and told me that forgetting how I got to where I was omitted half of the joy of being there. It took me a long time to see the wisdom of that comment.

Many mappers may say thanks during their initial stages of mapping. A few even continue to do so after they do well. Almost all forget what they were like when they were new.

Still however, to this day I have not seen any mapper who made into a game who acts truly grateful for the assistance and patience given to them free of charge when they began that career.

It would be nice to see, just one.

I do not know you as a person and therefore could not really have meant to single you out. I did however suspect, after looking at your early works, that you must have received a hell of a lot of help from someone/someone's. Even if it was only you placing the items, someone else/else's must have been there.

I will only have to trust that in your case, you are as nice as you sound. You do sound as if you care. :smile:

Sorry for the pointed comment. It was truly meant generally.

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There is no history until something happens, then there is.

On an unrelated note, I'll be DAMNED if I knew Campaignjunkie was on the Black Mesa Source team.

Underdog said:
Many mappers may say thanks during their initial stages of mapping. A few even continue to do so after they do well. Almost all forget what they were like when they were new.

Even levels from 'veteran' level authors tend to supply a readme with a credits section included in the zip file (and/or have credits on their personal website), listing who helped on that particular level. On the SP front page, most of those levels listed as running on the SP server do include a readme with credits.

Regarding crediting those who helped get the mapper a foot in the door of the gamedev industry, as Finger described it's overwhelming due to the individual's determination and ability. The amount of feedback received from the community is actually very very little in comparison to the time invested by the individual himself. Sure, though, it would be nice to tip one's hat to those who've helped along the way, but then surely people would have an enormous list of helpers?! Teachers, family, friends, former work colleagues etc etc will have had every bit as much input in molding the individual and getting him the opportunity.

half-dude said:
What I REALLY want to do is concept art I just don't know If you can get a job just doing that.

Yep sure many companies have dedicated concept artists. Here's one ex-colleague's website to give an example of the typical quality of artwork required.

http://www.stuartjennett.com/concept.htm

Half-Dude... this website is amazing in terms of concept art: http://www.conceptart.org/

Sorry Underdog - didn't mean to snap at ya. And yes, I have had alot of help. Every map that I have posted on the snarkpit has almost doubled in quaility because of the great people here.

OMG that stuff is great! Yea I know I have to start using color, I just havent gone to any painting classes. I never color because I see it as a risk, it can either make or break a picture.

If you guys want to quiz me on being creative maybe you guys could ask me to do something and I could see how well I could meet your needs.

That would be neat!

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Yes I spell bad, but remimber Mighty are the stupid.

Check out my drawings at http://half-dude.deviantart.com/

Half-Dude... you should check out www.penciljack.com

It's a great artistic resource... and maybe if you become an active
member around there critiquing other people's work, you could make a
friend who would want to color / ink your drawings.

To be a game designer does not mean to "map"

you must know how to model, skin, make your own textures and simple concept art as well as world/level design.

If all you do is map, you don't stand a very good chance at all
at getting a job by valve or blizzard or anyone else like that.

You don't have to be a "do it all" to get a job in the games industry,
in fact it's becoming more and more likely that you have to be a
specialist. Jobs are narrowing in scope rather than widening - if you
are building levels, not many places will expect you to be drawing
concept art, building models, skinning them, and making textures for
the level as well. Of course having knowledge of all these other areas
is useful, and being able to do them is never going to hurt, but it's
not as if a level designer who has no experience in 2D art is gonna be utterly discounted from a level design job.

Also, a game designer is going to be designing the game itself, not
building characters or textures or the like. Things like the formula
for determining how much experience the player earns after winning a
battle in an RPG, or what AI requirements the game has, of what
gameplay features are to be implemented, are of far more concern to the
game designer than the polygon layout of a character or implementation
approach to the networking.

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting keved</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

Even levels from 'veteran' level authors tend to supply a readme with a credits section included in the zip file (and/or have credits on their personal website), listing who helped on that particular level. On the SP front page, most of those levels listed as running on the SP server do include a readme with credits.

</DIV></DIV>

I think you slightly missed my point. I am not accusing mappers of being ungrateful at the time the received their assistance. Not for a moment. Damned few authors would stay in business with an uncouth practice like that. My point mainly is, many forget afterward. For instance, and no I cannot point out any one particular person but, look at the people who made it onto the big leagues. Did their quality remain the same or did it fall off because they are now unable to call upon the very people who got them there? Lets assume that game design has different priorities for the moment. Yes, author A is told to create an area for a certain segment of the game. Will it be on par with the last map he made as a free agent? Most likely not. Its not to say it won't be but, of none of the authors I have ever encountered had great maps with no credits due in a read me.
I think what I am trying so vainly to attempt is to say, I think I have no idea what I mean. :sad:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Finger</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Sorry Underdog - didn't mean to snap at ya. And yes, I have had alot of help. Every map that I have posted on the snarkpit has almost doubled in quaility because of the great people here.</DIV></DIV>

You had every right to defend your position as you saw it. It may simply have been my inability to clearly display my thoughts. I know you have done this. You have an idea. You begin typing and re-read the results thinking "Yeah, that about does it"

When someone later posts some idea that clearly shows a hole in your design, its apparent but somehow not gratifying because you think you plugged all the holes prior.

I treat this forum as if we all are standing in a giant auditorium. We all are chatting at once, and ever so often one of us shouts above the din. My post was just such an event. I wasn't talking to anyone, just over them.

Sorry to be so rude. I should know better than to shout.

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There is no history until something happens, then there is.

Underdog said:
Did their quality remain the same or did it fall off because they are now unable to call upon the very people who got them there?...Will it be on par with the last map he made as a free agent? Most likely not.

It is difficult to answer, because most likely the person will be working with totally different technology. 'Free agents' naturally gravitate towards using some of the more cutting edge technology available, like Source, and can better showcase their talents of course. But when working for a professional games developer, the tech is usually proprietary and often isn't anywhere near as good (believe me, I know this through experience .) Not every developer gets several years to work on and refine their tech, like Valve. So in those cases, through no real fault of their own an individual's work on the commercial title won't be as good.

In a game dev company, you're gonna be working with a group of
professionals who are quite often sat right next to you - without
meaning any offence to communities like this (as if I'd dare :biggrin: ), I
reckon that sort of environment is going to be just as beneficial, if
not more so, toward improving a map than some comments on an amateur
online community. Yeah, there are deadlines and pressure in the
professional industry and often these things result in less than
stellar end products, but I don't think its fair to place too much
blame on lack of feedback from the people who helped you previously.

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

ReNo said:
In a game dev company, you're gonna be working with a group of professionals who are quite often sat right next to you - without meaning any offence to communities like this (as if I'd dare :biggrin: ), I reckon that sort of environment is going to be just as beneficial, if not more so, toward improving a map than some comments on an amateur online community.

Yeah, ReNo, I entirely agree - I had written a sentence to this effect in my previous post but thought the better of including it as I figured I'd get jumped upon. :smile:

Sadly, I am going to have to continue to disagree. I may be proven wrong in the end but for now I will remain steadfastly in my present position.

There were mapping communities before today yet, the games produced that hired these guys didn't reflect the quality the experience granted them.

I assume that the fellas at Valve had prior experience someplace before making HL1 yet the maps were levels below what eventually was released after the the games release. The same holds true with a lot of other games. Halo has some pretty crappy/boxy maps. Hell even Quakes earlier versions had better user made maps than the game shipped with. The only notable exception seems to be anything created with the Unreal engine. It seems that either the talent that came with Unreal was exceptionally picked, or they have a phenomenal feedback acquisition group cause the games maps all were superbly built.

To place myself in a better position I will concede that todays games seem to have some quality in their maps but, I still firmly believe that any author presently hired has a handicap of sorts because of the feedback base no longer available to them from their user made maps days. No gaming maker is ever going to allow maps for a future game to be critiqued by people not within their employ and this will show in the end product. I would have nothing to gain, or lose by being honest in my feedback of any areas I were permitted to look at in any game under construction. I believe however that pressures from within the corporation to make the game would preclude negativity to some degree. I do not believe they would chance total ruin, but I doubt there is any map released with a game that could not be improved dramatically by having it viewed and critiqued by outsiders.

Lets assume for the sake of argument that my observations are outdated and obsolete and perhaps we will all be happier. :sad:

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

I think you're overvalueing the feedback people give to user-made maps.

Do you remember walking out of the trainstation in HL2 into the town
square and your jaw hitting the floor? I do. That area
alone has set a visual standard (in my opinion) that no user-made
single player map has come close to. The reason? The "team"
idea of people who are damn good at what they do, whether it be
materials and models, or actual mapping, or whatever (I'm not familiar
with all the specific team positions at Valve or in game companies in
general) pushes HL2's maps to such a high level because these people
are greater than the sum of their parts. How can feedback from
random amatuer's (like me) outweigh the benefit of having a team of the
best of the best?

Also -- if in 4 years time some custom maps put out by a single person
turns out to be so flipping amazing I'm going to have to chalk that up
to a better understanding, familiarity, and experience with the editor
and the game engine and its limits. That's why the maps in HL1
that were made long after the game was released look so much better
than some of the ares in HL1. Also the team at Valve -- they had
to think very seriously about performance issues when making the game
so long ago. People were able to contine making maps for 6 years
and the specs on the average person's computer have gone up markedly
since then.

I think the only fair comparison between a user made map and a studio
released one would be to give them both the same amount of time to
develop a map. Will it be a team of very talented people working
together? Or a single very talented person (with less talented
people giving feedback) working alone? Personally I think the
team will create a better product.

Addicted to Morphine said:
I think you're overvalueing the feedback people give to user-made maps.

I think you are under valuing my opinion because you are using to short of a timeframe. Extending your comment to include the previous 10 years might bring it to light for you with respect to the point I am attempting to make.

Does HL2 have some awesome maps? You bet. I was more impressed with the map they made for the "Lost Coast' demo than anything made for the game but thats not to say the game was a dump.

I believe that even that map could have benefited from some outsiders. I walked around the map, just to view and noted many places that could have been improved upon.

Are you attempting to somehow tell me that its not within your ability to notice defects? Even within the HL2 maps? I saw plenty. I would hope that if you were going to be in this conversation that you noticed a few too?

I also want to point out that even with outside help mistakes slip through the cracks. No map is 100% completed. One just assumes that the benefit to continuing to look for them is not worth the gain of doing so.

Again, try to expand your view beyond 2004/2005.

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There is no history until something happens, then there is.

Underdog said:
There were mapping communities before today yet, the games produced that hired these guys didn't reflect the quality the experience granted them.
I assume that the fellas at Valve had prior experience someplace before making HL1 yet the maps were levels below what eventually was released after the the games release.

Yes I entirely agree, but don't with what you think is the reason behind this (the lack of feedback from the community they previously had access to.)

As ReNo stated, there are totally different pressures while working for a games developer. If the publisher wants something in a particular way, you've gotta do it no matter how stupid you think it is. If the publisher wants it done by "yesterday", that's when you've gotta hand over the assets no matter if you personally think it's done to the best of your ability or not. If the publisher wants twice as many levels yet aren't willing to hire more guys to get the job done sufficiently well enough, you've just gotta get on with it and make do as best you can. If the publisher insists on framerate being maintained on lower spec PCs you've gotta strip out the fancy details, while people making levels in their own spare time can freely choose whether to set the spec requirements higher for his level and make the rooms not as 'boxy'. Etc etc.

Sure, getting in outside people to critique would help, but it's much more due to lack of time and resources and publisher pressure than the reason you're suggesting. Delaying a game by a few months to take into account critiques likely costs $100,000+ per month - a publisher simply isn't going to stump up this sort of extra cash per month. Yet delaying a user-made level by a few months just means people are playing the beta version of a level for a while longer.

When creating user-made levels you're in complete control of what you create, how many levels you do, when you're happy they're finished, and you have access to relatively "finished" technology. You seem to be thinking that there is some sort of Utopia for game development in all professional companies, that people get all the time, resources and technology they need, and it's the lack of feedback which is the problem, when it's usually anything but. Only those developers like Valve who hit the big time with a game selling millions of copies get to do what they want and set their own schedules.

Well... I was considering the past 7 years (since I talked about HL1)
and considering my real commitment to videogames didn't start until
HL1, I can't talk knowingly about Quake or Doom days. So I'm
afraid I'm limited to 1998 and beyond.

Anyway -- considering the fluidity of technology and limits and the
state of game development in general, I don't think anything before
this generation of technology can really be used to discuss where we
are now and what it means. In other words, in my opinion things
have come too far since HL2 was released to lump the present in with
the pre-HL2 days. I think we've entered a new generation, a new
age, and an age where thinking about Quake or HL1 doesn't help
discussions about map development as it works today.

You know what's strange... I played through HL2 and was just impressed
by the whole entire thing. I never stopped and thought, oh I wish
they had textured this differently, or had changed the architecture in
this area, or had fixed the location of this prop. I may catch a
lot of flak for that comment, but I thought the HL2 maps were a pretty
tight bunch. I'm curious, what type of defects are we talking
about? I notice plenty of defects when downloading and critiquing
user-made maps... but I almost never notice problems with the official
maps.

Underdog said:
I believe that even that map could have benefited from some outsiders. I walked around the map, just to view and noted many places that could have been improved upon.
I also want to point out that even with outside help mistakes slip through the cracks. No map is 100% completed. One just assumes that the benefit to continuing to look for them is not worth the gain of doing so.

Again, gamedevs are simply not given the time to do this, Underdog, while Joe Blow in his bedroom can take as long as he wants to iron out every problem.

Also -- Keved, nice posts, I agree with both.

In regards to the second one... I think if you were to give both a team
and a single amatuer mapper the same time constraints and pressures
(but still allowed the amatuer mapper access to user feedback) you
would see the team produce something of much higher quality than the
single mapper.

Underdog said:
I believe however that pressures from within the corporation to make the game would preclude negativity to some degree.

Do you not think that I have made it to my mid 40's without coming across a bit of what you say Keved?

I know about deadlines. I know about reasons that make sense ONLY to the powers that be. I know that s**t rolls downhill, and I am fully aware of who took that dump before gravity set it in motion. (even if the powers that be are unaware of their recent bowel movement:( )

I know what you say is true, and yet still believe that things could be improved. Lets assume that the improvement is belated and the things that the cooperate bigheads made them remove yet the mapper knows must be to make it great I guess.

Anyway, I think the discussion has run its course because in the past few posts no new ideals have been proposed. The lines are clearly defined and continuing will not bring them any sharper into focus.

Addicted to Morphine said:
I notice plenty of defects when downloading and critiquing user-made maps... but I almost never notice problems with the official maps.

Perhaps instead of putting me into a position to define why you missed them, you should go back and have a look without the bother of playing. Putting me in a position to prove something is not as desirable as having you rethink your position on your own terms. You do not really need me to point out a wall or a bush do you?

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

Well it would be nice for you to give me one example so I know how much
of a problem you're talking about (texture misalignment 1 unit or a
huge glaring brush error in a wall).

My point is that any defects in the HL2 singleplayer campaign are
hardly noticeable. That's my experience. Some here will
agree I bet there will be others like you who would disagree.

Anyway -- we're getting kind of off topic, and I agree I've pretty much exhausted my points.

[edit] Damned Snarkpit is being a real prick this morning, some of these pages are taking 3-5 minutes to load. :sad:

I had this reply but the Snarkpit went down before I could post. It was in response to your earlier reply.

________________________________________________________________

Addicted to Morphine said:
In regards to the second one... I think if you were to give both a team and a single amatuer mapper the same time constraints and pressures (but still allowed the amatuer mapper access to user feedback) you would see the team produce something of much higher quality than the single mapper.

Wrong. The very definition of the word team is a group of "LIKE MINDED INDIVIDUALS"

Users will always make better maps because the resource they draw upon is made up of unlike people. Thats not to say that every mapper is competent. I am restricting my comment to the upper 1% (or less) depending on the shear numbers involved of course.

Notice, maps made that are severely critiqued by opposing views ALWAYS turn out better once released. Many fail to be released because of the severity but still those that fail are in many respects better than the ones less critiqued and released.

I am not saying the groups at any gaming company are a collective of dunderheads but their very like mindedness will show in the result. I may not have been on a gaming team, but I have most definitely been on corporate teams of other types. Sometimes you are simply to close to the forest to see the trees.

Anyway, I felt one last reply was essential because your post was so horribly misinformed that it needed to have one.

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

Another rather unfair point about the comparison of official HL1 maps
to later made amateur ones is that higher system requirements that
people built the maps to. HL1 had a low system spec to meet, and they
built it accordingly. Most official maps were well below 600 w_poly at
a given time, a value almost every community mapper strayed above
afterwards, but that isn't the only constraint to keep performance in
check. They kept their texture resolution lower than custom ones that
would appear in the future, they didn't use all that many textures per
level in order to keep down the memory requirements (this was in the
day where graphics cards with dedicated video memory were not that
common remember), and they also had AI and additional model rendering
pushing on their limited system resources when compared multiplayer
maps. They also didn't have the benefit of Zoner's compile tools, nor,
I'd wager, the luxury of increasing the lightmap resolution to make
things look nicer.

Now I'm not saying this is the reason HL1 maps were superceded by
community made ones, but it is another contribution to it I'm sure.

---

[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

ReNo said:
Now I'm not saying this is the reason HL1 maps were superceded by community made ones, but it is another contribution to it I'm sure.

Are you discounting the great maps made in 98/99 when you posted? Am I not obliged to say that your comment is a bit unfair to think that I restricted my comments to only powerful machine made maps?

There were/are indeed many maps made in both era's to be considered, but I did not restrict my post to the Pentium 4 era made releases.

In fact, didn't we have a similar discussion last month were I mentioned that user made maps created out of stock materials is harder to succeed at? Should this not pose my position on how far thinking I am? I favor the older made maps after all.

Anyway, your comment was at least as unfair with respects to my being narrow minded. :sad:

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

<div class="quote"><div class="quotetitle">? quoting Underdog:</div><div class="quotetext">

Wrong. The very definition of the word team is a group of "LIKE MINDED INDIVIDUALS"

Users will always make better maps because the resource they draw upon
is made up of unlike people. Thats not to say that every mapper is
competent. I am restricting my comment to the upper 1% (or less)
depending on the shear numbers involved of course.

Notice, maps made that are severely critiqued by opposing views ALWAYS
turn out better once released. Many fail to be released because of the
severity but still those that fail are in many respects better than the
ones less critiqued and released.

I am not saying the groups at any gaming company are a collective of
dunderheads but their very like mindedness will show in the result. I
may not have been on a gaming team, but I have most definitely been on
corporate teams of other types. Sometimes you are simply to close to
the forest to see the trees.

Anyway, I felt one last reply was essential because your post was so horribly misinformed that it needed to have one.

</div></div>

Glad to see the word of God come down from the clouds to correct the horribly misinformed.

You bitch about harsh unequivocal replies but have no qualms about dishing them out yourself. Smells of hypocrisy to me.

I don't agree with you, but I'm not going to come out and call you
horribly misinformed or just "wrong." You said it yourself that
no discussion can continue when people deal in absolutes.

Honestly, I don't see how users will ALWAYS make better maps.
That's a bold claim that is impossible to substantiate, and I'd hope
you'd be able to see that.

I'm steamed that you're taking the stance of an expert and you're
portraying me like a dunce, because despite what you seem to believe I'm not
stupid. I hold a different opinion than you do, and I don't think
its an incorrect opinion. And in the event that someone backs me
up or agrees with me, you'll probably cry foul because you feel like
you're being ganged up on.

....

Anyway back on topic.

In my opinion, the best teams have more resources and more combined
talent than the best solo mappers. Perhaps you put so much weight
on the feedback users receive from random backseat-mappers in an
attempt to validate your own modus operandi of not mapping, just
offering critiques? What you do is valuable, yes, but I can't see
how it would outweigh a team of paid professionals.