I remember when HL2 came out I was a little concerened that mapping would become somewhat more difficult. That you'd need a whole team of mappers and texturers that do all the artwork after the mapper just built the map as an orange room.

Now almost 2 years have passed and I don't recollect any non-mod maps that use custom models. Some custom textures here and there but even they are rare. I'm not saying there aren't any custom models in maps but they are so rare compared to original HL2 maps where everything that's more complex than a wall or ceiling is modeled as a prop. Models make better framerates, higher detail... it's just how the source engine works.

I didn't hit the search button. I know there are a tons of threads on this issue. This is just a thread about having tons of threads and still no connection between modelers and mappers.

That's what I want talk about. I think ultimately mappers and modelers would have to work together to get anything done in accaptable quality without falling back into the old, boring HL2 theme. I'm speaking about HL2DM maps here. I'd like to do that big, futuristic city project but I find it to be almost impossible to do without some custom models. I just don't have the time to learn the modeling programs, to create all the custom textures for the models ect. ect.

The Source engine custom map scene is looking a bit bland and I think the reason lies in the high amount of work for custom content. How about opening SnarkPit (read - any mapping releated community) to the modeling scene? Or post some threads on modelers' sites. I don't know much about them but I guess there's quite a community.

This may be a little over-optimistic babble but I just felt discussing it once again

:smile: Perhaps people could post concept art and information on what they
need in their maps here and the rest of us with minor modeling
cababilities could take a look in them, if we'd have time. Anyone for
this suggestion?

---

''Everyone wades in s**t until they're competent enough to walk on it. Jesus style.''
Dystopia - Empires

Well, to attract modellers, you've got to have something that's interesting to them. For starters, that would be usefull tutorials and pro's to learn from. For others, it would be public - a source of critics/comments.

That's how I see it - you can't attract someone without using a bait. :smile:

I do think it's a good idea, coupling level-designers with modellers, but to what extend you can guide such a process... I dunno...

---

Create-ivity - a game development blog

What we need, is to get a project started on one of the popular modeling sites.

---

Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

Here's a modelling site I used to visit for tutorials ect: http://www.3dkingdom.org/

---

What the Snarkpitters listen to!

I just don't have the time to learn the
modeling programs, to create all the custom textures for the models ect. ect.

Then you need to learn to make time. Rome wasn't built in a day, nor
does the skill of modeling come to one so fast. You can learn it in
your spare time, you can tinker around with XSI, or Maya, or 3D MAX and
go from there.

This isn't meant as a personal attack on what you said, but there are
mappers out there who have embraced the modeling program(s) and made
some pretty kick ass
maps. And to blaintily say that you "just don't have the time
to learn the
modeling programs" is what is causing the lack of custom content (not
you specifically, but thats what other mappers say im sure). And I'm
sure you have your reasons for not learning how to model but [read the
paragraph above].

I think its a good idea to attract modelers to the snarkpit community,
but by no means do I think its the answer to the lack of custom maps :smile:

---

Posting And You

Yeah, to make a map that stands out you definitely do need custom content, textures and models both.

So, there are two options as I see it. You find people who can make textures and props for you, or you can learn to do it yourself.

Personally, I wish I could do it all myself, but learning to model and texture is a lot of time I'm not sure I'd want to commit. I already tried modelling, and I found it pretty difficult. It just wasn't as easy to find people to answer questions, or tutorials to read.

Additionally, from my point of view, in order to get someone to make textures or props for your map specifically you need to be good buddies in real life, or you make amazing maps that get released and played, and they want to be a part of that. I don't think anyone wants to make assets for a map that gets scrapped, sucks, or doesn't get played. I think this idea goes hand in hand with attracting modellers to the SnarkPit. I agree with Captain P that we need really good modellers here to attract others in the first place, but we also need mappers who these modellers will want to work with.

Ultimately though, the freshest stuff I see that's getting released is being produced by people who do all the custom content themselves. I'm thinking of people like hessi, r_yell, alexroyce (like omega pointed out) even generalvivi. All of them model and texture, and in my opinion it brings their stuff a cut above the rest.

You know what we should do to jumpstart our learning? We should hold a tiny little contest (nothing official, unless others want it to be) where you create a map of whatever size and theme, for whichever source game, with 100% custom content. You must have at least 1 custom prop model and obviously custom textures. Maybe even a custom sky (terragen anyone?).

I think that would be cool. If we did something like that I'd create a tiny rats map with custom textures (maybe even something simple like lego textures so it's not too hard) and some toy models. Something small that would get us working hard on learning some new skills. Also, if we all start texturing and modelling at the same time, we can have a thread where people post their problems and everyone can give feedback. I imagine, for instance, someone will have a hard time getting their model to compile and work in game, and then someone else who just figured it out for their own map can help out.

AtM: I like your idea.

__________________________________________________________
(mainly in reply to omegaslayer)

Yea, cs_cabaret... AlexRoyce's maps were what I was thinking of when saying "there are exceptions". His work is amazing. The only other map I can think of is spookface and the custom content isn't integrated very well...

I wrote this while re-installing XSI. I know quite a bit about modeling and did some in MilkShape, Cinema 4D (even tried 3D-Max and Maya) a time ago.

But it is a reason for the lack of (quality) custom maps. Almost every bit of more interesting architecture needs some custom models to work nicely in the Source engine. Otherwise it's a pain to tinker around with not-so-fitting models or brushwork and come up with a satisfying compromise. But compromises mostly take longer to build and never look as good as the optimal solution - models.

I thought why I found it so easy to map for TFC or RF compared to the Source engine and it pretty much came down to this. Modeling takes a lot of extra time (on top of the actual brushwork). I deeply respect the work of the few mappers that already dared to do this step, but these are exceptional people who probably had a lot of modeling experience before.

I agree, saying "I don't have time for it" is probably ignorant, but if I'm a little more honest (I could say "I didn't have the energy and motivation for it - not yet") it's just the truth for me and the majority of mappers. We now have to handle 2 programs for even the most basic things. Doors, windows, handrails... everything has to be done with models now to work correctly. It's so much more work. Plus the UV texturing and shaders. Plus physics boxes which I don't have the slightest clue about. But don't misunderstand me. I try.

Maybe it's true and us mapper should embrace the idea of doing our own props in the modeling programs more frequently but even that hardly seems to happen. As I see it XSI is the "official" modeling prog for Source games and the selection of tutorials for it is slim at best. The only one I found at Snarkpit so far is about installing the whole thing. And usually the Snarkpit covers pretty much everything the community needs (or is doing...).

I'll take a look at it and maybe even try to write a basic tutorial on how to make custom architecture. I just think it's about time for custom models to get really popular so mappers are forced to learn the new tools and propbably see it's not as imposible to do as it looks. I'd even try to become more agile with XSI and work with a mapper whose style is close to mine on some custom models for his map. I'd love to do that.

Please believe me when I say that I started this thread with constructive thoughts in mind. I think this should be discussed as we seem to be a little stuck here.

Yeah we do need more modelling tutorials and resources on this site. I wrote the XSI installation one because I couldn't find any documentation on it that wasn't outdated or confusing, and the whole process was a real bitch.

ReNo did some good ones for Milkshape, but I'd love some XSI specific tutorials. Reaper if you wrote some I'd be overjoyed :smile:

Also, I'd love for some definitive voice from the heavans to boom down the correct program I should be learning, XSI or 3DMAX? I could never get a straight unbiased answer from anyone. I went with XSI just because of the whole Source tie-in, but I kept hearing murmerings that I made a bad choice.

The more I think about the mini-map challenge of a 100% custom content map, the more I like it. I just don't want to do it now because I'm in China and can't participate! Eventually though (when I get back in 3 weeks) maybe we can get DrGlass to swap out map-mosaic2 for CCC(c) (Custom Content Challenge (c)) :smile: Or you guys could just start now. I'm only worried that since people don't stay interested in things very long, that if we started now I'd miss the boat on the whole project. A lot of people working on it together and staying dedicated will help everyone keep going. I don't want to miss out on that.

I agree, saying "I don't have time for it" is probably ignorant, but if
I'm a little more honest (I could say "I didn't have the energy and
motivation for it - not yet") it's just the truth for me and the
majority of mappers.

Thankyou.

Maybe it's true and us mapper should embrace the idea of doing our own
props in the modeling programs more frequently but even that hardly
seems to happen. As I see it XSI is the "official" modeling prog for
Source games and the selection of tutorials for it is slim at best. The
only one I found at Snarkpit so far is about installing the whole
thing. And usually the Snarkpit covers pretty much everything the
community needs (or is doing...).

First i'd like to point out that XSI, may be the official modeling
program for HL2, but by no means is it as efficient, or logical to use.
Maya and 3D Max are far better at doing their jobs than XSI (It is also
more on line with what gamming industries use).

Second is that the snarkpit has always been about mapping for half life
(and its respective mods), perhapse that is the reason not many
modelers have migrated here is because the site really only caters to
mapping, rather than modeling.

I'll take a look at it and maybe even try to write a basic tutorial on
how to make custom architecture. I just think it's about time for
custom models to get really popular so mappers are forced to
learn the new tools and propbably see it's not as imposible to do as it
looks. I'd even try to become more agile with XSI and work with a
mapper whose style is close to mine on some custom models for his map.
I'd love to do that.

There are many articles/tutorials/books out there already explaining
how
to map a model's UVs or even about basic shape geometry, but just
like mapping a lot of it is about developing skills.

Im not here to discourage people, im just trying to point out that you
can't expect anyone else to do the work for you, you need/should learn
it yourself, if not on your own, then in a class room at your local
community college (ETECH 140 teaches you maya!).

And id like to point out Snarkpit caters mainly to the mapping aspect
of Half Life, if people want to see more modelers then maybe its time
to change the theme and basics and turn this site into a more general
area of where all graphical artists can come and post/critique their
work.

By all means im on your side.

---

Posting And You

Gah! I had a bad feeling that XSI wasn't the right choice.

I've heard you're supposed to just pick one and get really good with it, it doesn't really matter which you choose. But I'm wary about that. There must be a best choice. Then again... if the best choice costs 1,000 USD, there must be a second best choice :razz:

Omega, off the top of your head do you know if there is a free version of 3DMax we should be using? Or should we model with Maya instead?

Thoughts?

I agree with all you say, omegaslayer, except for SnarkPit being a mapper's site. I mean it is (duh') but clearly mapping and modeling have formed a symbiotic relationship since the introduction of the Source engine. Maybe a modeling forum section wouldn't only be nice but almost necessary.

I guess the main reason most people prefere Max and Maya is because they're used to them. I mentioned XSI because it seems to be quite an official tool for Valve Software thus having the most supported plugins, tutorials ect.

If we split this up in 3 or 4 modeling programs now the sheer mass of necessary tutorials alone becomes intimidating. :sad:

I'm not sure if maya's the right joice. Is there a legal, easy available version of it that supports HL2?

I dunno, at least us mappers should stick to XSI for basic modeling needs simply because of the official support... We don't have to do any character animations anyway.

Gah! I had a bad feeling that XSI wasn't the right choice.
I've heard you're supposed to just pick one and get really good with
it, it doesn't really matter which you choose. But I'm wary about that.
There must be a best choice. Then again... if the best choice costs
1,000 USD, there must be a second best choice :razz:

Omega, off the top of your head do you know if there is a free
version of 3DMax we should be using? Or should we model with Maya
instead?

Thoughts?

http://nct.digitalriver.com/fulfill/0049.034 (google)

Is a 30 day free trial of 3d max. But in all honesty I have the full
version gotten illegaly of coarse (If you want I can PM you the link to
download the torrent to get the full version). As well as maya. For the
break down between maya and max....is like comparing apples and
oranges, they both do the same thing in a different way, however, maya
is capable of changing it's interface to work like Max. I just wanted
to bring attention to the fact that maya and max are the most used
programs in the gamming industry (XSI only entered the scene when HL2
came around).

I mean it is (duh') but clearly mapping and modeling have
formed a symbiotic relationship since the introduction of the Source
engine. Maybe a modeling forum section wouldn't only be nice but almost
necessary.

Not only necessary, but more would be needed to be done. We would need
to recreate the whole site design to attract more people who like to
model.

---

Posting And You

Morph... (whoa.. mini-orph? nah..) Sorry... ok, Morph. If you are looking to jump in and learn a modeling package, I would just ahead and suggest using XSI. I say this simply because it is the easiest program to use in conjunction with Halflife 2. The pipeline for importing and exporting between hammer works well enough (although compiling models is still fairly tedious, but there are GUI compilers out there).

I started learning 3DMax back in 2000 when I was at the Art Institute of Houston. This is where I cut my teeth. When I moved out to LA for work, I had to use Maya. Lately, I've been using XSI for source related modeling. Transitioning between these programs is only hard in that you are learning a new layout. The actual functionality - the meat of what you learn (how to model), is fairly uniform across all of these platforms. So, I personally think you should start with the program that is most relevant to your goal - which I assume is model creation for source games.

Mini-orph? Haha :smile:

Thanks for the posts Omega and Finger. If transitioning isn't a big deal, that I wouldn't mind working with XSI. I have a very basic familiarity with it now, and it is free to use for Source stuff. I don't actually use torrents so I'll stick with the very free (and very legal) XSI.

The biggest thing with XSI is that there don't seem to be many tutorials or resources to help people get started (compared to Max or Maya).

Back when I wrote the tutorial for installing XSI, I was really interested in learning how to model. I made a baseball bat which I thought looked decent except for the skin which was awful. Compiling it correctly was really difficult, but ErykGecko from iwannamap.com walked me through it over MSN. He's been singlehandedly pumping out videotutorials for modelling with XSI, which I found very useful. Since we don't have any modelling content I don't have a problem pimping out their site. Go here if you want videotutorials for both XSI and 3DMax: http://iwannamap.com/tutmodels.php

Yeah, that's the only resource I've found. :sad:

I stopped modelling in the spring because I got readdicted to WoW, but since I'm in China now sans-WoW I'm more active on the SnarkPit and more interested in mapping. As long as I can stick to my desire to not play WoW ever again, I should be able to revive my attempts at modelling.

As for redesigning the site, I don't think it would be absolutely necessary, but if we could somehow rename the Radiant Editor forum to Modelling Forum... it might see more use. As it stands, people just throw their stuff into the Art forum. That kind of works, but a real Modelling Forum might attract more potential modellers to show off their work. Although, with Lep gone it's gonna be really hard to get anything changed. :sad:

On a side note, I'd like to say that Milkshape 3D is quite capable of working with the source engine. Kinda bitchy to compile with source, though...

@AtM: The idea idea of a custom-content driven comp would be fun, but nothign dealing sky boxes, please skyboxes are an artform themselves, and I have no idea how to properly align them with terragen, or how to compile them for source. I think that would single handedly turn people away from it :razz:

There's also GMax out there - I have no idea how good it is, despite that I have it. The interface seems really clunky to work with, and as far as modeling goes, I really just want a simple Milkshape styled interface, with as few buttons as possible :/

---

Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

Haha okay, custom skyboxes won't be necessary :smile: Neither will custom player or weapon models, but I guess that goes without saying. I want us to make custom maps, not a new mod :smile:

Also, maybe at the end we should just post screenshots of our final work, instead of having to worry about distributing the maps with all the custom content. People can post as many shots as necessary, since everyone's maps will be different sizes depending on their desire to create a lot of custom content, or just enough to get a decent looking room up. Additionally, if people want they can upload their custom content after their done into the SnarkPit's file system for others to download (I feel like the file system hasn't had any new additions recently) that would be kinda cool.

I'm trying to think about who would want to do this. reaper47, G.Ballblue and me so far. Maybe we should post a thread with a poll asking if people would be interested. I just want to see some people actively mapping or learning new skills. Thoughts?

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Blender. It is really an amazing program for straight modeling and UV mapping, if you take the time to learn it. This is largely because of the well thought out user interface.

Since Blender is free and open source, a lot of people automatically assume that it is on a lower tier from the top modeling packages, but this is not true. It is excellent. I paid good money for 3dsmax, and have acess to maya and xsi, but with the recent versions of Blender, I use blender by choice. That is not to say that Blender doesn't have some disadvantages, but IMO its plusses far outweigh the minuses.

Some advantages:
1: 3D cursor is great if you use it right.

2: The user interface is very efficient once you learn it. Mouse movements are saved for spatial tasks, and you can easily reconfigure the layout for what you are doing.

3: Grouping and layers are implemented well (although a starcraft-like fast-grouping-of-anything system would be a nice addition... Blender 2.4.3 anyone?)

Some disadvantages:
1: The n-gon modeling is basically non-existent, so you must make everything in tris and quads.

2: Learning the interface is hard. You have to memorize a lot of hotkeys until they become second nature in order to be effective. There are no menus or buttons for most of the useful features; you are expected to know the hotkey for them. This is sort of like learning to touch-type on a keyboard - hard at first, but the benefits are huge.

3: I have no idea how good the animation tools are, and they are probably not that good.

---

http://maze5.net

It crashes :sad:
Damn, I so wanted to get started with this today.

What crashes? XSI?

I'd love to be more active around here, I'd love to see the site become a general editing site rather than a mapping oriented one, and I'd love to see the place flourish with active users again, but at the moment I simply don't have the time to help make any of that happen. Gwil seems to be more active here just now but I don't think he's in much of a position to make huge changes to the place by the sounds of his post in Orph's thread.

I think the problem with our little community at the moment is that we have very few people actually producing content, and, without meaning any offence, we don't have any "big names" as active members. Don't get me wrong - there are people putting out some nice work here, as the contest showed - but in general we don't have any mapping "elite" putting out new work with here as their main community. Places like Mapcore and Interlopers, on the other hand, do. People flock from smaller, less "pro" communities (like present day Snarkpit) to those sites because they get to work with, or converse with, those gurus. And that doesn't just apply to level designers either - but texture artists and modellers too.

I think AtM's suggestion of an entirely custom-content driven contest is a fabulous idea, but are there enough people willing to give it a go? I'd definately be up for it but my free time is so rare at the moment I don't know if I could participate. The only way this site can make any sort of resurgence in popularity is if it becomes more active, and lets face it, for that we need some new blood. We aren't gonna attract new people to the place by sitting twiddling our thumbs, nor by discussing our views on religion and homosexuality (interesting as those threads occasionally are).

But we aren't an active community, so its a bit of a vicious cycle really!

I think some short, simple, varied, and imaginative contests to get people building things again could work. To give an example, check out the map battles at interlopers (http://www.interlopers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10238) or the monthly modelling contests over at Mapcore (http://www.mapcore.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5706). We have big annual contests that people get all hot and bothered over and probably feel they have to dedicate a lot of time to. Monthly's, or even weekly's, done purely for fun and kudos, might encourage more people to jump in and have a try.

Anyway this was just a rather incoherent brain dump over my lunch break. Take from it what you will :smile:

---

[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

The first two paragraphs are sad, and entirely too true. I've been a mapcore lurker for a while (I refuse to post until I have created a map that wont get ripped apart there), and I throw some comments around at 'lopers, and both sites are hugely more active content wise. At the same time, I still prefer this site and the people here.

The only solution to the lack of content at SP is making stuff myself, and hoping others will do the same. But of course, that can't be anything more than talk since I'm here in China. If words are worth anything I genuinely want to do something content-wise when I get back home, instead of just wasting all my time in general banter, or offereing occasional critiques in the maps section or on map profiles.

I'm sick of backseat mapping, I want to do something.

'lopers have a good thing going with their map battles, which I always follow and vote on when I can, just because they always get a range of submissions. Even if the battles aren't always close (there are usually 2 or 3 standouts among 8 or so submission), everyone seems to get involved and enjoy the whole process.

I honestly think a Custom Content Challenge would be a lot of fun, and definitely edifying. Exploring new skills like texture creation and modelling will be frustrating at first, but ultimately rewarding, no matter the result. I don't care if people create a hollow cube with 2 custom textures and 1 custom prop, or if they create something that spans the entire grid in hammer.

Personally, however, I'd want to wait on this "Challenge" until I get home (August 15), so I can actually walk the walk with ya'll.

Also, when I thought about this, I wanted it to be more relaxed. Not a competition, not a battle, but more of a challenge. A fun way to get us all actively creating, without thinking about nabbing prizes or accolades.

But yeah, what ReNo said is right, we need short, simple, varied, and imaginative contests to get people building things again. Get us mapping day to day, week to week. Not just annually :smile:

I mostly work with Unreal nowadays... though I haven't opened UnrealEd or Maya in a few weeks... In any case, I would probably take a shot at making some sort of all-custom map on the Source engine for a SnarkPit contest. This is the only online community I'm even semi-active in as of right now, and I don't have any desire to join any others. More contests or even just a monthly or weekly "theme suggestion" for mapping would most likely get active mapping going on at the SP again, I'd like to see that.

---

o

Hmm, I like the sound of a custom content battle. It lets you focus on a piece of custom content alone, rather than a full-blown map with all the things that come with it. Short motivation-span required, still fun assured... sounds good to me. :smile:

Some mappers are capable of creating their own art. But being able isn't everything. For example, I'm a modeller as well. I'm a programmer. And I can do some textures if I really needed to. But while modelling goes fine with me, textures take me a lot of time and dedication - time I'd rather spend on mapping. It's just not what I enjoy, and for that reason it quickly kills the fun of HL2 mapping for me.

Well, enough words. I'm in for a short modelling compo. Just for a friendly challenge. How about sharing our workflows when we're done? We might learn a thing or two from each other. :smile:

Milkshape is my choice, bytheway. But whether we're going to encourage Milkshape, or XSI, or Max, or whatever other package, in the end it's all modelling - the techniques may vary, but so do workflows amongst mappers.

---

Create-ivity - a game development blog

yeah, we really need to start pimping the SnarkPit.

I say we start a mod. A mod that has no specific theme. All we would do is get things that we thought the game would've been better with and without and add or remove them as necessary. With new maps, some better weapons, and not much of the original content. Maybe bring the Gauss back?

A SnarkPit mod would really kick butt, because we all have such good ideas almost all the time.

Instead of competing with eachother, let's make our custom content, then put it all together skillfully and make a great game out of it.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

i don't want to be a negative nancy here, but i fear it might all be too little too late. Many left or have lost interest to even open up hammer. creating a simple contest with only one room is simple enough, yet only a few snarkpitters joined up, with no sign of the old gurus.

But yeah, maybe an even simpler challenge, or a collaborative effort (like the mosaic) would start up the engine, who knows. anyhow, we need a strong puller like Orph to finish such projects off succesfully.

---

These words are my diaries screaming out loud

No mod, thanks. It's already the overload of work required for a decent map that's keeping most people from any serious mapping...

---

Create-ivity - a game development blog

The last mapping competition had ZERO inspiration. An area with whatever you want in it ... not much of a theme.

Keeping the mosaic's going would be a good idea. I think there should be more "rules", so to speak, with it, or have two different ones going. There should be one that has a goal to make a playable map where everyone can make their contribution (all sticking to an ongoing theme in the map). The other could be wacky s**t. The point of the rules, or restrictions is to only allow quality work. An empty box room is not quality work.

That would get some creative juices going, I think. And that's really the issue, there's nothing on this site to inspire anyone to create anything anymore.

A mod would be too difficult in this large of a community unless everyone cooperated and from my experience here that doesn't happen often. It's a good idea though the thought is still aimless, a mod about what? It'd be nice if it was "everything you wanted to see in a game" sort of thing. But that's still a lot of work. Not that I'm against it or anything. It could be really fun as long as people don't get bored with it and wonder off.

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

yeah, we really need to start pimping the SnarkPit.

We should hire this guy then.

Seriously, it will take a lot of pimping to attract people from other
editing sites. Yeah, most are simply more attracted to larger more renown
communities because they expect more pros or experienced modders to be
there but they usually wind-up disappointed. You'd expect the steam forums for instance to be chock-full of wisdom. Guess again.

I remember suggesting a snarkpit mod (or atleast a sp mappack) a long
time ago. So, of course, i'm still 100% for the idea. I doubt it will
attract too many outsiders, but it will give the locals something
interesting to do.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Crono</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>The last mapping competition had ZERO inspiration. An area with whatever you want in it ... not much of a theme. </DIV></DIV>

..which, if anything, should make it more accessible. the 2004 one only required it to be "themed" which basically means "whatever you want", and that was successful indeed.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Crono</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

A mod would be too difficult in this large of a community unless everyone cooperated and from my experience here that doesn't happen often. It's a good idea though the thought is still aimless, a mod about what? It'd be nice if it was "everything you wanted to see in a game" sort of thing. But that's still a lot of work. Not that I'm against it or anything. It could be really fun as long as people don't get bored with it and wonder off.</DIV></DIV>

it would be too difficult period. first of all, we have too few coders who would be dedicated enough imo. second, the vagueness of "the community as a whole" will cause unresponsibility, with no specific role assignments and claimable tasks, and so, a lot of tunnels that have no light at the end.

---

These words are my diaries screaming out loud

rather than just doing it for the sake of doing it, a model competition could be a good way of creating themed packs for the mapping community. there must be 101 things that are simple enough even for the newest modeller, but would still be seen as welcome alternatives to the default hl2 stuff.

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i eat paint

Yeah, I think a mod is too big of a task to tackle. As far as I know, mods rarely work in general, and if they do its because everyone is committed to a singular (simple) idea that then gets developed and improved.

BlisTer, it may be too late to bring SnarkPit back to its glory days (I wasn't even here then), but I'm not going to give up on this place just yet.

Anyway, I would love to use fishy's idea of a themed model pack for mappers. Maybe we can put something out that other people will actually use, and that will get our name out again. Fishy can do complicated things like grand pianos and I can model baseball bats and golf clubs. :smile:

Yeah, I don't necessarily want competitions, but any sort of bimonthly or monthly challenge would be nice. Just to get us making stuff again.

Monthly Snarkpit model packs in predefined themes - sounds like a cool idea to me! Similar to the monthly model "challenges" idea, but with the added bonus of putting out model packs that people might actually find useful.

If we go ahead with this, I propose we keep it to simple themes for the first few months - nothing too abstract nor anything too specific. Something like city street furniture (e.g. lamp posts, benches, phone boxes, power lines, planters, litter bins, etc...) would be an ideal first theme.

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

even street furniture might be a bit too complicated as a starter. i was thinking more along the lines of something that takes virtually no modelling experience to make, like maybe a light fitting, so that the initial problems most new modellers have when trying to get their work into the game can be addressed. forum threads generated from starting off with something so simple could also create a decent 'intro to modelling' for people that haven't tried it yet.

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i eat paint

Question: Is GMAX any good for making source models (i'm asking this because I know close to nothing about moddeling)?

anything that can export a .smd file should work. i've never used gmax, but i'm sure i remember reading that it could, or there was a plugin for it that exported .smd's. so i think the answer is yes.

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i eat paint

The idea of an easy modeling competition, or something along those lines, would be great -- probably better than the original idea for a competition :smile: Not only would it introduce new models to the HL2 community, but it would also give people a reason to model -- I have MS3D, but I rarely ever use it because I have no reason to.

Plus, this would give people great experience with modeling :wink: If you do something long enough, you'll get good at it.

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

Well, I personally like the idea of creating 'themed model packs' on a monthly basis. These packs don't have to be immense (hell you could prolly get a way with just a handful of models), but they would have to adhere to a certain standard of quality. The cool thing about this is, if we can consistently produce these packs, we can submit them to all of the halflife sites as our gift to the mapping community. This kind of thing would most likely get front page coverage on sites like Halflife2.net, possibly generating more traffic for the Snarkpit.

Even this would be a lot of work, but I would be willing to contribute at least one model per pack.

Monthly model packs sounds like a good idea. I just wonder if any of
you can point me towards a good GUI for studiomdl. I tried
Cannonfodders GUI, but it keeps crashing every time I try to start it.
:sad:

Three days to invent the topic for next month. :biggrin: Fire up your creative sides.

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''Everyone wades in s**t until they're competent enough to walk on it. Jesus style.''
Dystopia - Empires

Cannonfodders GUI works, but you have to do some pretty funky work-abouts to get it working. Basically, you have to open up both GameInfo.txt files in Halflife2 and Halflife2deathmatch (I may be wrong about those), and comment out // a certain line which will then allow the compiler to work. Now, in order to use Hammer, you have to go back and restore the GameInfo.txt files to their original state. It's somewhat of a hassle, but if you search for the crash error, you will find a few forums that give specific instructions on how to do this.

I've been doing it all manually, just because I already have that process memorized.

One thing to note while compiling manually, by dragging your QC file onto the Studiomdl.exe file. ALWAYS run Halflife Model Viewer in the background while doing this. For some reason, Studiomdl will crash horribly if Model Viewer isn't running. It won't happen every time...sometimes it will compile fine, then the next 6000 times it will crash. Model Viewer stops this completely.

Going along with Fishy's idea I put my vote in for next months modelling challenge to be:

Light Fixtures

Lamps, naked bulbs, spotlights, floodlights, whatever.

Y/n/m? Every map needs light, and so if we can produce some quality stuff there's a pretty good chance people will use it. And, like Fishy said, it shouldn't be too hard.

Cannonfodders GUI works, but you have to do some pretty funky work-abouts to get it working. Basically, you have to open up both GameInfo.txt files in Halflife2 and Halflife2deathmatch (I may be wrong about those), and comment out // a certain line which will then allow the compiler to work. Now, in order to use Hammer, you have to go back and restore the GameInfo.txt files to their original state. It's somewhat of a hassle, but if you search for the crash error, you will find a few forums that give specific instructions on how to do this.
I've been doing it all manually, just because I already have that process memorized.
One thing to note while compiling manually, by dragging your QC file onto the Studiomdl.exe file. ALWAYS run Halflife Model Viewer in the background while doing this. For some reason, Studiomdl will crash horribly if Model Viewer isn't running. It won't happen every time...sometimes it will compile fine, then the next 6000 times it will crash. Model Viewer stops this completely.

This may have just solved my problems -- I'll have to try it out sometime :wink: I always wondered why studiomodel never appeared to do anything when I had the .qc file set up correctly...

Light Fixtures

Lamps, naked bulbs, spotlights, floodlights, whatever.

Y/n/m? Every map needs light, and so if we can produce some quality stuff there's a pretty good chance people will use it. And, like Fishy said, it shouldn't be too hard.

I am so unbelievably game for this -- I vote for it. :wink:

Then again, this whole thread has me revved up

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

Hmm, I think a themed pack goes more into 'western, urban, industrial, office' theming than into 'light fixtures, door knobs'. What I mean is, a light bulb doesn't add a strong sense of difference to a map, not as strong as an office chair or jungle plant would, for example.

I was thinking, office or home styled objects like seats, tables, leather banks, vases, music installations, tv screens... such objects are still quite cubic, nothing too advanced to start with, while still having the potential to grow into a distinct prop theme.

Bytheway, I could draw some concepts if anyone thinks it would help them modelling something.

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

Well we could go with a residential theme, and I guess light fixtures would be a part of that. I just think we have to be careful not to bite off more than we can chew, because I hope a lot of the people participating will be taking their first crack at modelling.

Edit: Typos.

I see your point, yeah. However, anyone who has difficulties should be able to ask advice from other, more experienced, participants, so on the other hand it could improve learning rates if we didn't set a too easy goal at first. Let's say, something challenging, but not insanely hard.

How about saying beforehand what thing you're going to model, so we can spread the objects evenly? I mean, 10 light bulbs and one chair isn't really what we're shooting for... and it allows starters to pick easier models while more experienced modellers can take on the more demanding objects? :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

That sounds good to me.

How hard is it to make a model breakable / gibbable? For example, I wouldn't want to make a TV that didn't break in some way when it was shot. If it's really hard to make an object breakable, I'll just stick to something simple like a couple of light fixtures.

For breakable models, you need to create various gib parts that are located in the right position, so the breaking looks realistic. This is fairly simple actually, as you can use the breakable model as the base for the broken part models. I don't know exactly how these gib parts are tied into the model, but I guess it's a simple .qc file thing.

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

Ah thanks. I guess I can always google for a tutorial too :smile:

I don't think I'd want to do a TV now that I think about it, since I wouldn't really know how to model the inside upon it breaking.

Do you think some high class house maps could do with a large breakable vase to put in a corner of a room or something?

Yeah, sure. I think that's quite a good choice, as they can be used in Chinese maps as well... :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

Well snap I'm in China so I might as well get crackalackin' and track down some vases to take some reference / texture photos of! :biggrin: