In the past year or so, it seems that the Snarkpit has become a bit dilapidated, or something. It seems that we get lots of new members who do not contribute much or anything and are mostly Jimmi's alternate accounts.

Well, I think that we ought to promote our site much more in the mapping/modding/game editing community (which i think has also dilapidated somewhat) I'd like to see some more good mappers like ReNo and KungFuSquirrel, and Nickelplate(jk). But since those guys and all thier like have become too busy or have just left as tends to happen, we need new people. I would like to have map Competitions again, and to see the IRC channel full of banter. I grow depressed at the current state of our home. What do you suggest we do?

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Let it die gracefully.

The atmosphere that made this site what it originally was is now gone. All people like me do is reminisce about the good ol' days. Virtually every time I attempted to initiate a promotional idea, some asswipe either ruined it outright, or found some ulterior motive on my part which eventually ruined it.

I say, Let the old Snarkpit die.

If you want a new one with the same name, create one that doesn't constantly compare the past, with the future you want to build.

No site you can envision, will be that good, so you will always feel disappointed with it.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

or maybe we could all migrate to prefabland..? =D

---

the players tried to take the field
the marching band refused to yield

Bewbies said:
or maybe we could all migrate to prefabland..? =D

sighs

I miss PFL.

Everything Snarkpit has had, and more... Gone forever.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

maybe, if fewer people were made to feel alienated, there would be less need of recruitment drives.

---

i eat paint

Community wise, at least regarding numbers, how does Snarkpit compare these days to other sites? As you've said yourself the modding community in general isnt what it was and Snarkpit (along with most other sites) is affected by that.

---

Hello there.

I'm not sure, spikers... I have just noticed a LOT of absenteeism on the part of the oldies.

Orph, i can't beleive you are giving up so easily. We can make it great again.

Fishy, I agree. There is too much liberalism around here.

I feel like our site is only surviving on the General Banter board, whereas we used to have a thriving editing community. What can we do to make this more than a forum?

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

<span style="color: silver;">I fully intend on gathering lots and lots of new ppl to the SnarkPit with the new competition. I am just waiting on some other people right now for confirmation. It will be an injection of life and popularity to the SnarkPit I can guarantee.

So soon there should be some fresh new meat! :wink:
</span>

luv u

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

K I WILL ESSEMLBE TEH MASSES!1 :biggrin:

(in a totally unrelated note, this is my 2000th spam post)

Most map editing sites get their members through the editing-question forums. I don't know what the Snarkpit was like in its "golden ages" but if it's solely about the amount of members I guess the idiot filter scares away many or keeps them from posting or registering at the first place. I hardly ever saw an editing site with so little activity in the editing forums.

---

Why snark works.

Let it die gracefully.
The atmosphere that made this site what it originally was is now gone. All people like me do is reminisce about the good ol' days. Virtually every time I attempted to initiate a promotional idea, some asswipe either ruined it outright, or found some ulterior motive on my part which eventually ruined it.
I say, Let the old Snarkpit die.
If you want a new one with the same name, create one that doesn't constantly compare the past, with the future you want to build.
No site you can envision, will be that good, so you will always feel disappointed with it.

I think if everytime someone disagreed with you you didn't say 'oh, the old days...' that would help new members. As the old community here gets threatened, there is some blatant elitism that the Snarkpit is known for. Get rid of that and maybe new members will come.

are mostly Jimmi's alternate accounts.

Less of that.

And less religion/politcal debate threads. I'm tired of coming to the SP and being enraged with every other thread.

My opinion is that too much of mentioned drove away the community. I know every website has its arguments and disputes, but damn, the SnarkPit has an unusually high level of them. In my opinion, that is.

---

Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

It Would be nice if there was like a way to find out about the irc chan. I had to find it by searching old topics maybe a sticky with like IRC CHAN HERE ROFLS

---

Why Do we all have to wear these ridiculous ties

The problem is, people are having a hard time with the learning curve of newer games. Something big happened to game industry since 1998 and people are either too busy playing the games, or just lost interest within a short about of time.

I think, since moding and mapping are much larger than they used to be, that people have grown into their own niche. You could snag new mappers, but generally, as has been seen, 9 out of 10 of them aren't people you'd want hanging around here due to irritation.

How do you fix this? It's difficult. One or two members doing something does fix s**t. The attitude of the community is what needs to change.

Being masters of HL1 editing doesn't mean nearly as much as it did a couple years ago and people don't want to let that go, it seems.

No more religious, political, racism threads or any topic that doesn't have an explicit warning that you may be offended by reading and 'debating' what is contained. The s**t-slinging really shows a poor light on the people who regular here. If people can be civil (those slim occasions), that's one thing, but that isn't what usually happens.

Generally, showing higher respect for other people's right to think however they wish would need to be shown, no matter how much you may be disgusted with their opinion. Chances are if you show that kind of respect (or ignore them) they wouldn't say it anyway.

If you get rid of that harsh edge, then more people would probably stick around.

As for editing, since this is predominantly a game editing site, get your f**king skills out of the toilet. Being able to create a masterpiece in HL1 is great, but old, tired, and ancient in the gaming realm.

Learn new engines. Develop inspiring new maps. New mods. New ANYTHING. Just anything that shows some sort of inspiration.

If that doesn't work: gear the site towards something else that people are interested in.
Give something other communities don't.

If you disagree: politely disagree or confirm what I'm saying.

I can't personally add anything right now because of school. But I will be working on some projects some time in the near future that I could display (primarily) here. The nice thing is, if I own it I'm not confined by NDAs.

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

I'm new here, and I don't know if I'm welcome here or not. I have not contributed anything (yet). Honestly, I don't know if I'm in the same league as far as mapping goes, but I'm trying. I'm currently working on several maps (hopefully post-worthy) to get feedback on.

This place is a great resource for tutorials and mapping help, I've learned alot here. Its a good place for creative people to show off their maps and get good insight and ideas about their creations, the do's and don'ts of mapping...

I generally ignore politically fueled conversations. On ANY site it seems to lead to flame wars and people belittling each other. So, I just don't post my religious or political beliefs, its got nothing to do with why I'm here, and I don't feel like arguing with anyone. Some of my best friends in life have completely opposite political views than me, but I still respect them.

There are plenty of newer people who've joined that have nothing beneficial to post nor anything of substance, they either bring typical BB drivel or threads or basically respond in an egotistical manner to just about anything someone says. Even if they were joking their sarcasm and way with words just plain sucks. I got turned off the site and mapping when the curve started bending towards either looks with no regard to efficiency or farcical gameplay such as killboxes for new engines.

It was once a place that abstained from this, but I hardly post now because anytime I read a thread I get angered from the brutally ignorant / intellectually insulting posts or I have nothing of worth to add (often because my viewpoints mimic Crono) and close the window after writing a partial rebuttal. I see many posts that I think the postee should have done the same.

I agree with the sentiment of the old timers.

Let it die. It's the only merciful thing to do.

---

Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'

Our current condition is the product of the editing community's sudden decline compounded by our tendency towards keeping our circle small. There are no more greats for us to induct, no more strides in our understanding of our chosen engine - simply not much to talk about. HL2's release, for whatever reason, vacated nearly every editing circle, and those still interested in developing material cater to audiences that I doubt could even remember the fantastic production values of HL1 releases - developments in technique that vastly bettered the game's appearance. I count this as a fulfillment of my old prediction: when engines become too powerful, the value of the art they render diminishes.

I think most newcomers are unconcerned with General Banter's nuclear exchanges. Immediately to mind as another contributing factor is Lep's absence - masterfully, he designed a uniquely self-sustaining website, but without a head any body will die.

It occurs to me that chickens survive without heads. As Orpheus says, I prefer we preclude that end. No matter our way out, the site will stand as an impressive archive of knowledge regardless of whatever community haunts its boards.

---

[Im_invisible] "I would suck a man off, but only for sustenance."

Why would people want to join a dieing site? Comments like just let it die make me want to join other sites

---

Why Do we all have to wear these ridiculous ties

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Cassius</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I count this as a fulfillment of my old prediction: when engines become too powerful, the value of the art they render diminishes.</DIV></DIV>

100% true, Cassius. I think that when HL maps relied on innovative brushwork, rather than props (which my mind still regards as glorified prefabs), it was more of an accomplishment to make something that LOOKED good as well as had good r_speeds.

I am willing to discuss approximately 80% less religious/political topics if we would start a Snarkpit mod. Almost everyone here has something they either miss from HL and wish was in HL2 or saw in the leaked beta and loved. Or they may just have some new ideas that we can include in a deathmatch-or-CTF mod that would include such features. i.e., I would love to see the Gauss gun be a carryable weapon again. and I'm sure that with our collective genius here, we can figure out how to make these, and other requests a virtual reality.

Everyone has something to contribute, and once we have a concept model we can attract new members which can increase our idea/skill base tenfold.

What do you say? I am willing to commit to making a mod. It will solve the problem of a dying snarkpit, AND the problem where we want a good DM game, which HL2DM has not supplied.

Oh, and chickens die eventually...

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

"The past
is dead, but you are not. Learn from it but do not forfeit yourself
to living in it. The past must be our guide; It cannot be our future."[size=13]

-General Brian L. Browne

With that I'd like to add those who wish to abandon ship, go ahead. Those who think this old pit hasn't
yet run its full course, stay aboard and keep an eye on the editing
forums if you have any knowledge or are in need of it. I believe the
USS SnarkPit has more to give than a general banter board riddled with
aimless arguments.

cassius said:
[/size][size=13]without a head any body will die.

Very good analogy, Cassius.

All I can say is we can continue to talk about gaming and technology and bulls**t and await Valve's HL3 and see what new editing technology grants us, if any. Ideas ideas ideas.
[/size]

I think Lep is the biggest factor here - but honestly I don't think he's coming back.

I have a little hope though. The mapping style for Portal is very brush / gameplay focused and centered around challenges rather than epic adventures. I think it'll boost the HL2 design community when it comes out.

I don't know if its been tried before at Snarkpit but how about doing regular news updates about games, mods, steam updates etc like Interlopers, PHL, HL2.net, it seems to encourage more activity on the forum (I wont comment on some of the quality of it, thats another issue :smile: ).

---

Hello there.

Noob-Friendlyness ftw.

In HL1 you could understand the basics within a week or two and have a rather competent understanding about worldcraft and compiling soon. In HL2 it takes twice as long. With the result of maps looking uglier.

Snarkpit can be pretty scary for someone who's completely new to mapping (i.e. doesn't dare asking questions that sound stupid but aren't).

---

Why snark works.

Perhaps we should take our heads out of our arses and get that damned mapping competition rolling. This place is too good to die just yet. Let's pour more fuel to the flames! Keep the engine running! :biggrin: Goddammit people this pit 'o snarks isn't dead yet, let's keep it that way.

Someone give Dark Tree moderator status so he can put this competition rolling! This is no time to lay down and die! Pick up your Hammers people, we are going to war against early death!

---

''Everyone wades in s**t until they're competent enough to walk on it. Jesus style.''
Dystopia - Empires

It's being worked on, don't worry. I was hoping to do something this
evening regarding getting the competition up but it could be a push - I
have an extra shift to work, and in between that im on duty tidying the
house and making some tea!

Everyone has their viewpoint that's easy, whats harder to recognize is that everyone hasn't quite hit the nail on the head. Its, at least in my humble opinion, a conglomerate of everyones viewpoint and yet, not so.

People like Fishman had/have a good point but failed to express where and who was doing the damage. That's not wrong but its also a big missing and valid point. I am not trying to get him to go that extra inch either and commit himself to a definite position, that would be very very wrong of me. I only point it out because it too is valid.

People like Nickel, who somehow see me as giving up easily? Where the f**k have you been these last few YEARS? How can years be considered giving up easily? Worse are the people thinking the exact opposite of Nickel and think that I try to hard. This was a massive point between Morph and myself. I will not go into any details, but was very offencive in his viewpoint about my contributions here. The point is, you cannot win after a sentiment like these. There will always be those who think you try to little and those who think you try to hard. You are always branded an underachiever or an over achiever. :rolleyes:

There can be an argument that you should learn the newer engines. THIS is a valid point but the fact of the matter is that there are some communities who are still thriving with the older engines. My point here is, way to many people alienate those who only desire is to remain WITH THE OLDER ENGINES!!! There is always someone harping about why you should move on. Its creating an atmosphere of tension that could be avoided by simply accepting that some of us like the comfortableness of old and proven. This site could benefit 10 fold if people would just stop resorting to bitching. We spend an inordinate amount of time apologizing for needlessly caused grief.

Worse of all is the FALSE image of elitism's. In fact this site is one of the least likely to have such a viewpoint. The fact of the matter is, it is normally the ones who have caused themselves to be set apart who view Snarkpit AS AN ELITE WEBSITE. They themselves have been a nuisance and created the image through their actions and deeds.

Sadly, most of our newer arrivals have a blind spot where the older members are concerned. This site has a caste that's true enough, but very few of the older members actually demonstrate any tendency to resort to using it. The newer members never take the time to explore who they are about to offend. We have members here who have donated years to the betterment of this site, and we have those who have been here years and contributed little. The point is, each has a history and you are about to infringe upon it in some way that in most cases will not be forgiven easily.

Right this moment I feel that Crono and Gorby have come the closest to expressing what I would like to say is the closest to not only exposing our problems, but give some slight hope of resolving them as well.

Concentrate your thinking along their lines of thought and you will be well on the road to a solution.

IMO, this site is not dying because Lep or any of the green names are missing. Get over that part. We have missing members who rival their contributions who never had a green name. It would be nice to have some people we could count on more but it isn't essential. This site is declining for its atmosphere, not its leadership. And no, before you say it, the leaders do not in any significant way dictate how that atmosphere will develop. Unless you consider that they may stifle a certain direction. That unavoidable. They have their rights as well as anyone.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

People like Fishman had/have a good point but failed to express where and who was doing the damage. That's not wrong but its also a big missing and valid point. I am not trying to get him to go that extra inch either and commit himself to a definite position, that would be very very wrong of me. I only point it out because it too is valid.

i find it strange that anyone would know of these good points, especially considering that i failed to express them. i don't know where you're coming from with this, but if it's about not getting involved in other peoples attempts to set right all the wrongs of this world, then i don't really care, tbh.

don't get me wrong, i do have opinions and beliefs. it's just that i'd rather spend time mapping in hammer, than spend it here arguing the finer points of gay marriages between races of differing hairstyles. maybe if other people thought along the same lines, this thread wouldn't exist.

---

i eat paint

This is broken too, hmm?

Edit: This is all my fault :razz: I'll try and fix it ASAP! Gotta go to work now though...

General banter is why i keep coming here. There have always been heated discussions, insults and the ever-returning freedom of opinion question. This is not the reason for the general feeling of Snarkpit's decline. The feeling of decline is mainly due to the fact that Snarkpit is only general banter anymore, no added value of mapping etc. We all came here as mappers, now we have nothing here that reflects that aspect. Brave attempts have been made in the last 1,5 years to bring events that would hopefully motivate us to get the mapping engine running again.

The coming of HL2 was too big a hurdle to motivate us for 2005's whole-map compo. Opening it up to HL1 again, and making it a one-room compo improved things, but we didnt reach critical mass. IMO we need an accessible event/project that can captivate us enough to reach a critical mass of entrants. Once we have critical mass it will be something on which all eyes are fixed, and the everyday discussions will be regarded far more trivial than they seem now. And once we have critical mass, idle members will be incited to join in, simply seeing beautiful creations and saying "wow. how did he do that.. i can do that too.. i can do it better". That's how most of my maps got started anyway. Imo this is also the way to tease ppl into mapping for HL2. Like Orph said, you can't force ppl into a new engine. i think you can tease them into it though.

So far i might have given hope, but i'm not at all that optimistic. Simply because this project may not exist. A Snarkpit mod? we talked about it, we don't have the coders. This Map-a-trap compo? hopefully. i have my hope set on Dark Tree, but it's not all up to him. Maybe Crono's secret project, or a revived Mosaic project? who knows :wink:

I used to love it here. Real life got in the way. That, and things ain't as cosy as they used to be here.

It's not all bad though. The archives are an immense source of good information from people who know what they're talking about.

So as a last tribute to the good years, I'd like to say thanks. With much respect. Not only for the big shots here, but for all the people who added comments to maps and contributed in any way.

Thanks.

Force.

---

:: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer

fishy said:
i find it strange that anyone would know of these good points, especially considering that i failed to express them. i don't know where you're coming from with this, but if it's about not getting involved in other peoples attempts to set right all the wrongs of this world, then i don't really care, tbh.

You insinuate ulterior motives again Fish. I beg of you to desist. Slow down and just pretend that I was only using your reply to substantiate something I wish I could have said instead of you.

I meant it exactly like it says, it is a valid point. One which I would like to delve into more deeply, but cannot because I cannot fathom any way for me to do so without incriminating myself.

Go back, re-read your point and pretend I made it. (I feel it is a perfect example of one of the major wrongs done here frequently)
As I said, it would implicate myself because if could be argued against me... In spite of my firm belief that they would be wrong, I can envision how someone would believe that I am someone who drives new members away.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

maybe if it were named something more cozy, it'd have lasted forever... like, um, bullsquidpit? i mean.. snark?
snark?y (sn?rk) Pronunciation Key
adj. Slan. snark?i?er, snark?i?est
Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.

i kid, i kid. this place will never die.. we'll keep coming back, and it will forever be a valuable resource to mappers. (and now modelers a wee bit?)

---

the players tried to take the field
the marching band refused to yield

I suggest a modeling forum , set apart from the 2d art.

Modeling/Texturing is almost as important as mapping.

I think it would allow another hard core fanbase to migrate in.

I originally came here for the Tutorials. I think if we pumped out more of those I'd be happy at least :razz:

---

.else /me ~kill you
www.arclan.net

There seems to be a steady flow of new maps coming in, and I can't say it's decreased since I first came here. That has to be a sign that the site hasn't been forgotten.
More content certainly wouldn't hurt. I'm willing to write more tutorials if someone gives me a subject. The problem is that there are already a lot of tutorials on the site, and my ideas get taken.
If someone can suggest something suitable, I'd be happy to write something up during the Thanksgiving break.
Incidentally, I wrote a 3D skybox tutorial, I think I'll upload it if there isn't anything similar here.(Some of my un-submitted tuts.)
(I didn't realize there were that many.)

I too blame the lack of simplicity to some degree. On the other hand, when:
-Sven Co-Op
-Portal
-Team Fortress 2
-Any number of other mods
come out, public interest will go up.

Edit: Oops, fixed that typo.

---

Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

More content certainly wouldn't help.

Typo?

All I have to say is that as soon as I get out of this hotel and back into my home state, I am going to start some really good mapstuffs that are now just ideas. I'd like to get started on whatever it is that the new comp will be about.

Also, some non-snarkpit-specific news and sections might kick things off!

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

I think lep should return, or at least give some other PHP-monkey access to the site inner workings. Firefox typing bug has been here for - ages -. I don't even see myself typing this.

---

:: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer

This might be completely off the wall, but...

this is kind of a demo of a "promotion" idea.
Imagine a better one with the snarkpit logo.



a series of comics about the do's and don'ts of mapping
(for any game really), topics from killboxes to bad spawnpoints.
Of course it would need a humorous twist and lots of sarcasm.
NOTE: this was made with garry's mod.

Now that would be cool!

I will have to work on some more then, thanks.

I'll try to post them in a new thread as I finish them
for approval. If anyone else want to make them too,
go ahead. I'll stick to garry's mod, because I can't draw.

I didn't get the Jeopardy(?) reference but it looks fun enough, anyway!

---

Why snark works.

Once the people that visit this site stop mapping, the site will decline. It may hold for a while with it's general banter board, but eventually it'll die.

Pushing people to map again - what they initially did out of themselves, for fun - just to keep a site alive is useless, imho. But if there's people here that still map, well, that's what this site is for. Go ahead and use the mapping forums again, get some level-design discussions going again.
I don't map anymore, at least for now, and I've got little time and motivation to fire up HL or HL2 to check out a few maps, but those are the things that will keep this site alive. Fancy ad campaigns might boost the signup rate for a while, but if there's no activity around, I don't think it'll be very effective.
And yeah, a modelling section would be good.

Anyway, just to give you a start, the lead-designer on Splinter Cell - Pandora Tomorrow recently wrote a serie of articles on multiplayer level-design, covering technical as well as design aspects. You'll need a Gamasutra account to read them (and if you don't want to sign up, you can always use bugmenot.com). Here goes:
Multiplayer Level Design In-Depth, Part 1: The Specific Constraints of Multiplayer Level Design
Multiplayer Level Design In-Depth, Part 2: The Rules of Map Design
Multiplayer Level Design In-Depth, Part 3: Technical Constraints and Accessibility

---

Create-ivity - a game development blog

Capt. P I think I love you for those links.

---

o

Uhh... :razz:

Anyway, what I liked a lot about these articles is the broad point of view, it takes a lot of factors into account, not just level-design on it's own. Changing the layout and gameplay of a map based on (player-triggered) events also looks very interesting: most of the maps here have some gimmicks now and then, but not a radical change in layout (well, Persian Letters had with it's doors'n'levers). It's those obvious things I never thought about. Just like that article, I believe it's Ben's mapping bible or such, that speaks about soft cover: grass and bushes, things that visually hide a player without stopping bullets. Haven't seen that a lot either, though it may give interesting situations.

EDIT: Ugh, finally a 4th page. There was a 4 link since my previous post but no 4th page... odd...

---

Create-ivity - a game development blog

The General portion of any site I have ever visited has always dominated the flow of the site. People just naturally tend to have more news to share that is non-specific to the sites design.

However, where each differ is how the site is governed. Dictatorships tend to be leaner, and meaner. Democracies tend to be more open, but flame ridden. The deciding factor isn't so much the leaders, but the leadership.

There is a tough lesson for newly elevated leaders, that few ever seem to grasp well. There are bosses, and there are simply bossy people. The old adage that leaders are born is for the most part true enough but in a setting where the people are very unlikely to ever meet, this ideal fails to materialize.

Leaders in a setting such as a forum are much more difficult to recognize. IE, Snarkpit has green names do designate leaders, but few if any of us would turn to one of them just because they were in the upper echelon. Most here would more likely approach a lesser member first.

Why?

There are some here who are going to disagree with this view, but that will not alter the perception much. Its still true, from a certain perspective and arguing it just makes it more obvious.

Anyway, one of the smaller issues with the decline of Snarkpit is its cadre. Not just the green ones, but everyone here who influences the direction of how things are accepted/argued.

Think on that a while.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

i could have made a couple of connecting rooms in the time that it took you to write that.

as for one of your previous points, if i was to point a finger at anyone for stirring up unnecessary trouble or strife, it would, as you suggested, be pointed squarely at you.

"There are some here who are going to disagree with this view, but that will not alter the perception much. Its still true, from a certain perspective, and arguing against me just makes it more obvious."

c'est la vie.

---

i eat paint

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting fishy</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

as for one of your previous points, if i was to point a finger at anyone for stirring up unnecessary trouble or strife, it would, as you suggested, be pointed squarely at you.

</DIV></DIV>

Now you know why I keep you around. So your big mouth can say what I wanted to without my undue strife creating.

You seem to have a blind spot, where your own chaos creation is concerned. I might as well use it, to my advantage.

I watched the original Star wars this week past... Again.

Obiwan had a bit of wisdom, I have vainly tried to share around here. Sadly, few seem the wiser for it, but I never caught it in the movie till this week.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to... depend greatly on our own point of view. </DIV></DIV>

Yeah, very wise words indeed. I may indeed offend some around here from time to time, but in the end, it is their problem to overcome, as I feel no compulsion to edit my views to accommodate anyone else's feelings. Least of all, fellow trouble makers.

Orpheus said:
As I said, it would implicate myself because if could be argued against me... In spite of my firm belief that they would be wrong, I can envision how someone would believe that I am someone who drives new members away.

Anywho's, I guess I'll have to quote my own words again and again until you grasp them. The difference between my trouble making and yours is, I admit that I'm a participant. You view your contributions as purely incidental. :rolleyes:

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Orpheus said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>In spite of my firm belief that they would be wrong, I can envision how someone would believe that I am someone who drives new members away.

</div></div>

in other words, you can see it, but you still don't believe it.

---

i eat paint