New Competition

imo lockdown is too big & complex for ppl to finish something in
a relatively short time. i was thinking more in the lines of 3 rooms, 3
hallways etc. isn't there a smaller standard map or a member map for
which we get permission?

Then maybe only a section of the map.

Or perhaps we can reproduce an area from a HL1 engine based game (OPFOR, Gunman, Wanted, Redemption, etc.)

Ohh no! TWHL already had a recreate HL1 map...I don't want to do that again :wink:
Another idea I suppose is a single room like a box that must be detailed up...

Mind you I don't see this as very restricting and it varies on the skills of the mapper...So maybe not that idea...

Perhaps something to do with ambience? A map that uses sounds to scare the judges?

I don't really like the limited brush 'n stuff idea, although it does has it's advantages of keeping the maps small enough to force you to be done with it relatively quick rather than keep refining something. A prefab map sounds better.

But how about a limited grid size, so the maps stay relatively small, and a layout sketch that everyone has to use, but that allows some freedom in the exact design of each room and connection? The results are going to be less similar than a prefab map, they should still be relatively fast to built due to the size limit, and they do allow freedom of theme...

And personally I'd like to see some more emphasis on gameplay innovation. I've more or less had it with the large production times of art for the sake of keeping up the standards, and while I definitely value a good look, I think the design side is much more interesting to explore.
In other words, all you jedi's, come join the 'Design Side'... :razz:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

You could possibly open up possibilities somewhat by advising people on
a maximum player load - say 4, or 6. Could be badly interpreted but I
think most people have a notion of player loads, and this would
encourage 3 room "arenas" and so forth.

I really don't think this is really aimed at making DM maps Gwil.

well, I thought up a little variation on the map from base idea. your given a very simple base map, that has no real texturing and lighting, like the origninal idea, and you have to fix it up.

but after that you have to make something happen, either in the room, viewable from the room, or even passing through the room. much like the previous compo you are still restrained to one room.

this tests your texturing, lighting, and scripting abilities in a short timespan

Im up for the HL1 Vs HL2 Competition that would be sick and i would so do it

A gunfight would be awesome but way to much scripting for way to little output

in other words its hard to make interesting gunfights in hl1

I would really like todo a NS based map competition but i doubt anyone would join

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Why Do we all have to wear these ridiculous ties

I really like the idea of having a template map that the contestants can add gamplay, textures, and lighting to. Like a medium-sized orange map with barriers and platforms

I really don't think this is really aimed at making DM maps Gwil.

I saw what people had said about SP, but I wasn't sure if that was the
direction people were going - personally, i'm more than happy to
support a single player based compo. The idea of having a gunfight
sounds interesting, but as was mentioned, it means people learning and
playing around with scripting. Whatever happens i'm glad to add my
money to the pot, encouraging talent round here has dropped off
somewhat! (I haven't forgotten I promised you a critique BTW, reaper!)

scripting is one of those few things even a few master mappers seem to lack.

its one of those things really important to SP gameplay.

anyways, placeing soldiers and having them attack the player from different angles and areas in a run and gun battle isn't much scripting

HURRAY FOR SP GUNFIGHT!!! HURRAY!
Now make the decision! argh.. lolz :razz:

we will have 7 days to make 7 rooms with 7 halways, max of 777 brushes and 77 entities, 7 textures and.......

why not a realworld monument? like richmore, or pizza tower...... or... bill gate's house? i dont know, maybe there's been a compo about this.

For me keeping it short and manageable is most important, I guess. I too looked through the TWHL competitions and was quite astonished by the sheer amount of them. They have very clear and restricted briefings that let people concentrate on one aspect of mapping. Time constraints are no real issues then. The "Map from Base" competitions seem like a good idea to me! I especially liked this one: http://twhl.co.za/compowin.php?id=3

Also I think we should concentrate on Source engine maps (sorry to the HL1 mappers :sad: ). I love HL1 and everything about it. But it doesn't make much sense to me to hold a competition about making maps for an 8 years old engine that so clearly has been replaced by a new one. One thing this competition could do is force people to learn new tools and improve by trying their best and this energy is better spent on Source maps. HL1 engine mapping has reached such a level of perfection (long ago) that I would find it much more interesting to see what people make of the HL2 engine (physics, new shaders, displacements ect.). Many features of it are still unexplored. :heee:

Excuse me!? Hold your Tongue!! HL 1 is the foundation of all to come in the future of the Half-Life episodes! How dare you say that!

Half-Life 2 editors and mapping is for NOOBS! It turns a noob into a great mapper in a matter of minutes! Damn displacements and whatnot.

HL1 is where the real works come from, not HL2.

I never want to hear that again! And I'm sure others would agree.

Noob

I hope you were kidding. In which case, use the sarcasm text color.

Unbreakable said:
Noob

no.

Reaper makes good points. i would add that the HL1 mappers should enter the HL2 novice setion (so no problem if you only do the architecture etc like you would in HL1).

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

sigh I know that was kinda offending towards HL1 mappers.

I'm not saying that HL1 maps are worse than HL2 maps. Obviously, most of them are better because of the years of extra experience (something I tried to say with my last post already). I mapped for the HL1 engine many years and it's a great engine that has produced some excellent maps.

It's just that HL2 engine really needs a burst. Some of the best HL1 mappers seem to never have made the "switch" because of a lack of time or motivation... or because "HL2 sucks", a statement I do not want to comment (well, it's wrong, that's all I say).

You can do amazing things not only with the new shaders but also with physics gameplay and new entity systems that are somewhat more flexible than HL1's. There aren't many Source engine levels I've seen so far where I feel like the mappers truly used the engine's capabilities. And competitions like this one could motivate people to start mapping for HL2 or look a bit closer at the engine than before. Maybe even you. :wink:

ah IC, and I agree with you, I would have made the switch if my now almost 2 year old dell could run it. But I just think that people shouldn't just stop having HL1 compos, because there are individuals who can't map for HL2 like me. :smile:

A "map from base" compo would be interesting. The TWHL "deathmatch from
floorplan" and "destructification" competitions were nice. We had a lot
of good entries that were different from each other and some were quite
original.

As for the HL2 debate... You can still spot a n00b map made with the
Source Engine. We have better tools now, that's true. But things like
theme, correct proportions, layout, ambience etc are independent from the
game you are mapping for.

I would really like to participate in a competition where something is
done with the power of the Source engine. I don't know how you could
combine that with a small map from base though...

reaper47 said:
...an 8 years old engine that so clearly has been replaced by a new one.

well HL1 and HL2 engines are different! i think HL2 is cool, way better graphics and everything but it gets boring, it's too real.. there are no gibs! where are the gibs? i used to blow up an alien or a grunt on HL1 and laugh hard because it's funny , or hit a corpse with the crowbar and "break" it. you can't do that in HL2, it's no fun at all. and about DM, HL2DM is too easy compared to HLDM, you just need a gravity gun (which you always have), pick up a monitor and throw it against someone else.

reaper47 said:
One thing this competition could do is force people to learn new tools and improve by trying their best and this energy is better spent on Source maps.
...much more interesting to see what people make of the HL2 engine (physics, new shaders, displacements ect.). Many features of it are still unexplored. :heee:

that's true, i agree with that. but i always preffer the classics, like a nintendo.
you have so much limitations that you must try your best to do something good.
but this isn't going to be the last competition, is it? let's make it HL2-only competition! weeeee

why only a HL2 Compo though!? Meh do what you guys wish. I'll be participating in a compo for HL1 starting at twhl rather soon. So if this is just a hl2 compo I'll still be participating over at twhl...so, well, good luck to everyone who enters. :smile:

my word isn't the last word.

you just need a gravity gun (which you always have), pick up a monitor and throw it against someone else.

And if you miss, which is easy to do if the ones you're playing with
aren't clueless, that someone else will introduce you to the business
end of their AR2. :heee:

I really can't understand all of this HL2 bashing. Yes,

HL1 was a great game... problem is it was released 8 years ago and is therefore outdated.
So get with the times. Heck, why
don't we have a quake2 mapping contest while we're at it? Quake wrote just as much history as half-life did, so why not?

[rant edited]

I can create a funner map in HL1

[microrant end]

the previous compo had both HL1 and HL2, and it worked out fine.

why can't we just do it with this one as well, the ideas posted work in both engines just as well.

If there will only be HL2 Competitions i will be sadly disappointed. HL1 Should stay its not a matter of HL2 Is better becuase IMO its not. Im not going to ever switch to hl2 until i feel that ive taken the GoldSrc Engine to its absolute Limits.

But Shame on you for changing this thread to a hl2 versus hl1 thread that was rather mean.

Now Lets Move onto the point at hand mapping competitions

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Why Do we all have to wear these ridiculous ties

I support the idea of mapping entirely for HL2.

HL1 DM is finished.

HL1 is 8 years old.

HL1 is not being actively pursued by people new to the FPS genre.

HL1 is a great game, but the majority of entrants and "community
veterans" have been playing it since 1998. It's time to move on. HL2
all the way.

So I ask then Who are we hurting or what are we doing wrong?

Im Not going to be forced into using hl2 just becuase snarkpit is using that as there ONLY engine entrant there are other places to go

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Why Do we all have to wear these ridiculous ties

like i said: this is not going to be the last competition right? then let's make this HL2 only, and the next... HL1 and HL2 or HL1 only or Quake4 and HL2.. or NDS only!

but yes i think it must be for both HL1 and HL2, since my computer goes crazy with hammer2. i need more ram!
(well it's not like i'll enter the competition anyway!)

well, if SP makes this pure source, and you want a HL compo, twhl still runs them, we alternate between source and gold source.

but no matter what engine, does anybody have any ideas or feedback on the current ideas?

I just don't feel like the HL1 engine is something that must be "protected". On the other hand so many people look own at the HL2 engine. TWHL clearly distinguishes between HL1 and HL2 competitions. And if we already split ours in "Novice" and "Everyone Else". We already have 2 categories and then these would have to be split in 2 again (HL1 and HL2) resulting in 4 categories. Then one of the 4 wouldn't have enough entries ect.

We just should decide on one engine, I think. That doesn't have to mean there are no HL1 competitions. But HL2 clearly deserves more attention. I could imagine a physics puzzle competition, for example, in the spirit of this one. Or a de-greying competition to take an example room with really boring, grey HL2 textures and then try to make it more interesting only by changing texturing and lighting.

I won't be entering due to an absolute lack of motivation to map anymore (read: never made it back into the gaming industry!), but will gladly lend a hand with critiquing etc.

I also think that providing some prebuilt element takes out the fun as all you are essentially doing is building upon someone elses concept, and therefore not winning solely on your own creative attributes.

Limiting stuff shouldn't be too restrictive either - something like a number of players the map caters for / recommended size sure, but saying you only have a limited amount of brushes etc. puts a stop to the more adventurous mappers.

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You Got To Get Through What You've Got To Go Through To Get What You Want But You Got To Know What You Want To Get Through What You Got To Go Through

So I ask then Who are we hurting or what are we doing wrong?

You can go ahead and ask, but no-one is saying that you are hurting
anyone or doing anything wrong. It's just common sense that
competitions from now on should either be solely HL2 or have HL1
entries once in 3, or something.

Unless theres some engine thing that the competition is based around i dont see why hl1 cant enter

Well its farily obvious now that 3 or 4 people dont matter when it comes to a competition. im just trying to say theres no logical reason aside from hl1 is old to not allow it in a competition

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Why Do we all have to wear these ridiculous ties

If you're saying that whether it's the HL1 engine or the HL2 engine is
irrelevant, then you are automatically implying that all maps be judged
the same irrelevant of the engine they were made for. Then why
bother entering a HL1 map if someone is going to
win with a HL2 map anyway?

Then you need to get better at mapping :razz:

Im sort of disappointed that hl1 is just going to be ignored sort of

Ive said it once ill say it again MOVE On to the REAL TOPIC

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Why Do we all have to wear these ridiculous ties

The most interesting ideas for the competition mostly have to do with the Source engine, which is the reason I'm staying so stubborn with this. I'd love to see a physics puzzle competition. But a displacement competition would be nice, too.

To keep this peaceful: How about a "nature" competition? Map something that looks very natural and pristine. Trees, Cliffs, grass or sand. Man-made architecture can be integrated but won't add to the judgement. This is both a challange for HL1 and HL2. Natural HL1 cliffs and hills are extremely challenging to do, not to mention trees. In the Source engine this would mean getting creative with displacement work which sounds very interesting to me.

If you're saying that whether it's the HL1 engine or the HL2 engine is
irrelevant, then you are automatically implying that all maps be judged
the same irrelevant of the engine they were made for. Then why
bother entering a HL1 map if someone is going to
win with a HL2 map anyway?

I don't think he was implying that whatsoever. Anyways, since when did it change from 4 categories to only 2?

HL1-Novice
HL1-Amateur
HL2-Novice
HL2-Amateur

I seriously think it unwise to have 4 categories - you'd really want at least 3 entries for each category and frankly, I don't see that happening. I'm not even sure its wise to have more than one category.

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

In all honesty, many reasons why good HL1 mappers won't "switch" to HL2, is because Hammer 4.0... stinks. Like a sock. HL2 also has a massive lack of decent textures; nothing but conrete and metal, and no trim.

/end rant

I'm all game for HL1 and HL2 mapping, but I'm annoyed as to how people are implying that HL1 mapping consists of only Deathmatch. There are things such as Sven-Coop, TS, Counter-Strike, TFC, DMC, HL Rally mapping... the list goes on.

I'd say that until there were competitions that covered most of the major HL mods and games, HL1 snarkpit competitions shouldn't end.

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

<span style="color: silver;">Hammer 4 is so much better than 3.5 its almost incomparable...

...having said that, I think the idea of having novice and pro competitions split is not really a good idea. Whos to say a really good mapper doesnt partake in the noob map compo, and an amateur mapper doesnt partake in the pro compo? I dont see how it would work unless there were some rules set. Like you cannot use custom textures or custom content in the amateur mapping compo, but you CAN in the advanced mapper compo, or something. Other than that, I DO think it would be a good idea to Have the competion split into HL1 entries and HL2 entries.</span>

Hammer 4 is so much better than 3.5 its almost incomparable...
..

Yea. Having it hooked up to steam is so great!

My list of grievances with Hammer 4.0 could go on for ages. That said, I have no intention in starting a flamewar, so I'll leave my comment as it is. My opinion stays as it is, to.

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

Hammer 4 just works. There were a couple of bugs during the new beta version changes a few months ago but they're fixed now. I had much worse bugs with Hammer 3.x. Horrible bugs. Hammer 4 works as well as Hammer 3.5 with a load of new features.

This is what I mean. People pick on poor Hammer 4 without bringing any argument for why it sucks. :sad: Steam is a completely different topic also.
______________________________________________

Please ignore the HL1/HL2 discussions if you do not care. My favourite competition theme stays "nature".

I still think it should be something simple. It doesn't have to be "the alpha and omega most ultimate competition ever imagined" but we can do something short and fun and expand from there IF this is successful... like:

"light this room"

There would be a bit of parity with HL1 and HL2 mappers since it's just lighting, though obviously HL2 has a bit of an advantage.

"make a physics puzzle"

"make a single choreographed sequence" (good opportunity to learn FacePoser)

"kill the player in an interesting way"

Each one having a short timespan (1-2 weeks) and being limited to 1 room. Participants are welcome to interpret "1 room" however they like.

can some important member just pick a final compo idea?

can some important member just pick a final compo idea?

<br style="color: lightblue;">
Commie.

at least commies get things done :razz:

Oh, touche.

Just do a map from base, include HL1 and 2 entries and make it lighting,texturing and detail. Simple. Now start it already :razz:

Coughing, sputtering, mumbling, bumping, and general waiting for a topic to be chosen for the next compo

I second CJ's ideas. They all sound like a good fit.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

"Kill the player in an interesting way" sounds like a lot of fun.