Post-Submission contest thoughts

So now that everyone has submitted their competition maps, what are all of your thoughts?

I know that I had a bit of a crunch for time. Another month would have definitely helped out - I could have made a better 3D skybox, and improved a few other things.

Anyways my biggest surprise is the sheer number of amazing quality maps out there, especially in this short a timeframe. I mean, I look at the mapping forum and I see map after map of equal or higher quality than the official maps - and the official maps are quite good. And the quality maps are not just here on the Snarkpit (although there is a high preponderence here), there are lots of other amazing maps that I've seen on other forums. I'm honored to be in this high caliber of competition.

I don't think Valve predicted this because I could easily see any of a dozen or so maps worthy of inclusion in the official game, and thats just the maps I've seen.

My mummy doesn't let me go to the Steam forums on my own, she says it's full of Bad People. Care to share a few direct links? :smile:

I would also like to propose that we do some kind of showcase or map pack of all the maps made by people here- basically something to get those maps out there and played!

I dont go to the steampowered forums either, and TBH I doubt many good mappers post their maps there (though they might). The other places ive seen maps are mainly mapcore, and various direct links from people on IRC.
http://mapcore.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=41&sid=59653e3d5253a6eaa367a06c193a8dfa
http://mapcore.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=31&sid=59653e3d5253a6eaa367a06c193a8dfa

I started 3 diffrent maps, and then scraped them all and 5 days before
dead line I worked really hard and made a full map. I could of
used more time, VIS blocking was hard and diffrent from hl1.

When I posted my info for valve I got ticket number 7800(ish) that is alot of maps to judge.

VIS blocking was hard and diffrent from hl1.

In what way?

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting DrGlass</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I started 3 diffrent maps, and then scraped them all and 5 days before dead line I worked really hard and made a full map. I could of used more time, VIS blocking was hard and diffrent from hl1.

When I posted my info for valve I got ticket number 7800(ish) that is alot of maps to judge.
</DIV></DIV>
Yes, but how many people, like me, registered and never put an entry together? I expect they got at least a few thousand entries though.

#7889 for me, i only wish valve would get my package, right now my package is sitting at a sorting facility

omegaslyer: that sucks, I dont know if mine made it in or not...

as for teh VIS blocking... I just had a really hard time with it.
The whole level would render. hl1 would VIS block areas for
you. I put some hints but they didn't seem to work, infact most
of the didn't seem to do anything.

I didn't find out about occular untill I sent my map off.

Yes, it seems they made VIS a lot less accurate, unfortunately, as a
sacrifice for speed or changing it to Source. I found myself whoring
Hint brushes like crazy to get the framerate up (compared to doing it
extremely rarely).

I think the most difficult part of Source mapping is getting to grips
with it's power and it's limits, rather than "learning displacements"
or whatever. I had no idea how large of a map Source could support,
what exactly would impact performance, what kind of layouts should I
strive for, etc. The result is that I overestimated what I could do and
made my map horribly immense and bloated.

So, lessons to learn:

• Learn area_portals and Hint brushes as soon as possible, VIS won't do much for you anymore.
• The possibilities with Half-Life 2 mapping are much greater than HL1, but not that much greater! Still be reasonable.
  </li>

I haven't seen many quality submissions outside of the Snarkpit, so I think there's a good chance of a resident member winning. Personally, I'm rooting for Morbid, though I would be rooting for Echo if Reno would show us some more goddamn screenshots :redface: .

I'm just hoping I put the right address on my envelope.

I just got this from USPS.com today........

Your item was delivered at 6:25 am on January 15, 2005 in BELLEVUE, WA 98009. Waiver of signature was exercised at time of delivery.

Whew....

Very well cass, I've updated with some shots of the sewers :smile:

Personally I reckon the winning maps will be ones we haven't seen
anything of. I've seen about 20 entries, but there with nearly 8000
applicants I'm sure the actual number of submitted levels will be in
the hundreds if not thousands. Most of the really high quality entries
I've seen have been either unfinished or unpolished in areas, have
played like s**t, or simply didn't actually get entered. I really hope
some fellow pitters snag some prizes though :smile:

For me its not the prize or the title of making a map that won, it was
more of a feeling that my talents would be recognised by a professional
company. And what else sucks is that I submitted two maps, mine and a
friends, so its a double disappointment. IM NEVER USING FEDEX AGAIN!

There's some good German mappers that took it to town on a few CS mapping competitions. I doubt they sat this one out. If Warbeast entered, he's my pick for #1. Definitely some terrific stuff around here though; I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of us placed.

mike3d's map is nice too

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Leperous</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Care to share a few direct links? :smile:

</DIV></DIV>
qua visuals, i think Linga's dm_resistance and Robert Briscoe's dm_depot (if he entered) make a good chance

The honor of being the best mapper out these is great an all, but 5 grand is far better than internet props if you ask me.

I had the same problem/challenge with my map CJ, I wasn't sure how big
I could go, and ended up over estimating. Oh well, ran about as well as
the official maps.

I'm just hoping my map made it in time, or more importantly they
collected it. I had to send it using a postal courier service, which
was the only way I could get it there in time. I checked the progress
and here is the last thing thats come up.


We attempted to deliver your item at 9:22 am on January 13, 2005 in
BELLEVUE, WA 98009 and a notice was left. It can be redelivered or
picked up at the Post Office. If the item is unclaimed, it will be
returned to the sender.



Hopefully someone will notice the notice and pick the bleeding
thing up from the post office in time. Curse Valve and their postal
submissions.

what i have noticed since HL2 was released, is what i noticed about the competition as well.. damned few mappers get any quality feedback.

i don't believe i have ever seen so many maps completed without showing up at least once. :/

if you want my honest belief, the last time there was a contest, they mixed in 50% quality releases with 50% total crap. i bet money that quality will not play a big part in this one either.. valve makes a great game, but in truth, i have seen far better user created maps than anything valve released with anything.

still, even though i realize maps can be made without any outside influences, it rubs me raw to see one show up here for the first time with 100% stamped on it.. it always says "take that".

before any wise ass says it, i have seen many maps reach fruition without one single word from me. its not that i believe that it cannot be done, but i do believe it takes some input.

I agree totally Orph.

The thing that really got me about this competition was that despite
the fact it took Valve 5 years to create HL2, they expect high quality
DM maps in only a month, virtually right after the game was released.
While many of us got maps completed, or at least near enough, there was
very little time for the public testing that is essential to creating a
polished piece. After I got my map to the point where it could actually
be played, there was no time left to implement the suggested
changes/fixes that arose from public testing.

Ultimately it encouraged the creation and "finishing" of maps without
actually gaining any input from the community that plays them. I'll
admit I've done it before, but my maps that have undergone scrutiny
from the community have always turned out far better than anything I've
produced solely on my own, without any external input.

I stopped working halfway through because not only is it a rough time
frame but there was a lot I just didn't know about the capabilities and
entities involved. I couldn't implement exactly what I wanted...I knew
what it was, but I had such a hard time getting even a stupid ladder to
work properly that I decided to work on other projects instead.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Gorbachev</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>but there was a lot I just didn't know about the capabilities and entities involved. </DIV></DIV>

EXACTLY!

if this competition was held 1 year from its release, the maps involved would have been many leagues in advance of what we are likely to see in this one.

at least i am betting it would have.

but.. i plan on doing a thorough critique of the chose among this competition.. i believe my perspective of quality mapping rivals theirs and i think i will know if the competition was rigged or not.
if the winner truly won, i will be surprised, if not totally speechless.. :/

The only reason its being done by post is because big fat Gabe messed up everything last time he was too lazy and used email... remember the consequences?

Depot looks good, but I don't trust maps that need a bit of the old Photoshop magic applied to screenshots :razz:

I think it OK to use sharp tool on thumbnails, because they get blurred, but not on actual screenshots unless they are small. On that note- is HL2 capable of render modes? FarCry could do loads, such as cell shading and cartoon and black and white...

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Leperous</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Depot looks good, but I don't trust maps that need a bit of the old Photoshop magic applied to screenshots :razz: </DIV></DIV>

i may be biased, but i do not trust a map that needs a 450k screen shot to illustrate its goodliness..
or is that what you said too?

If anybody bothered to download and play dm_depot instead of looking only at the screenshots then you'd know that it doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning. If you did download it and thought it had awesome gameplay, then well I guess dm_torque doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning.

I'm going to be sorely disappointed if some good looking map that has a low FPS average, a terrible layout, and zero gameplay wins. Not because I would lose the contest, but because I'd be forced to play it on every single HL2DM server in existence.

/bitterness :wink:

Yak is right though, Depot looks the part but it really is a poor DM
map. The flow is quite terrible, with some places forcing you down a
huge linear route before getting even one alternative offered to you,
and the interiors in particular are extremely cramped - only wide
enough for a single person at times.

Resistance on the other hand looks awesome - I saw it on mapcore about
a week ago, and on visuals it is certainly up there with the best. I've
not played it, but just hope to hell that it plays better than depot.

Here is how it will be:

A not-so-good map will win the competition. We will all be disappointed. The second- or third-place maps will turn out to be favourites.

/prediction

I didn't even MAKE a submission because i didn't have enough time. grrrrr

Well I'm not worrying about it, I'm sure they'll pick a good map- they've got enough decent level designers working for them!

Here is how it will be:

A not-so-good map will win the competition. We will all be
disappointed. The second- or third-place maps will turn out to be
favourites.

/prediction

I didn't even MAKE a submission because i didn't have enough time. grrrrr

I agree. I almost never like the winning thing.

With only three people judgeing at least 2,000-3,000 maps I wonder how
much time they will take on the map and what they will give the best
marks for. I supose they will have the interns filter out the
s**t-tastical but how will three people be able to really grasp how
well a map will play? I hope they are running some nice hardwear
because on my meduim range computer I had some frame rate drops into
the high teen's.

All I really hope is that they dont give extra points to the established mappers out there. we will see...

I agree with lep about the good/bad map mix, any one remeber de_torn?

Depot won't win. I'm 99% sure of it. Gameplay isn't the best. Sheds are cramped, and the map is like one big line. Also, FPS will be a concern. I think the ravenholm map on the front page has a good chance, along with rebar by ferret.

• The possibilities with Half-Life 2 mapping are much greater than HL1, but not that much greater! Still be reasonable.
  </li>

I beg to disagree, I reckon about sohl much greater? I have a
feeling a sort of locus system is hiding in there, plus we got AI
management! Particle engine! movewith! seamless teleportation! (yes
it's there, trigger_teleport takes an info_landmark now) and other cool
stuff

My thoughts on the mapping contest is that they are likely to pick a
very good map whatever the odds, look at the make something unreal
competition. But my estimate of what percentage are crap maps lie
around the 80% mark. Remember those mappacks? those have probably been
entered.

Remember those mappacks? those have probably been
entered.

Oh, the humanity!

I don't know, I don't think there's going to be a lot of people who
bother to mail their entry out to Valve. Certainly under 100 entries at
the most! Even those killbox makers have to have some common sense.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting BlisTer</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Leperous</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Care to share a few direct links? :smile:

</DIV></DIV>
qua visuals, i think Linga's dm_resistance and Robert Briscoe's dm_depot (if he entered) make a good chance

</DIV></DIV>
yeah.. i havent got HL2 installed yet, so therefore qua visuals :razz: sorry

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Campaignjunkie</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I don't know, I don't think there's going to be a lot of people who bother to mail their entry out to Valve. Certainly under 100 entries at the most! Even those killbox makers have to have some common sense.
</DIV></DIV>
precisely why VALVe made ppl mail it instead of an online-system. It's not because they COULDN'T get an online system (remember these are the steam ppl) It's because anyone who puts a "killbox" amount of effort into a map, Is going to put a "killbox" amount of effort into asking his mommy for a stamp and getting a CD mailer somewhere. (AND lifting the flag on the mailbox.) They're just too lazy.

Valve is prolly worried about viruses (remeber the source code theft)
they may get when downloading maps, plus the mail tells you who the map
came from, not george from russia, but joe from Ohio.

I think Valve should have an internal panel of judges but also allow inputs from the general mapping community. It's almost kinda like "American Idol" (for us Yankees). The audience and fellow gamers should have some say on which map will be voted winner.

If left to the opinion and taste of a few judges, then I would highly suspect the validity of the vote.

That's a bad suggestion for so many reasons. It's their money and their game, what right do we have to tell them what map to choose for their competition?! And who are they supposed to choose from the community to co-judge, or are you proposing a popular vote (and forgetting that most people are stupid?)

I don't understand why everyone seems to think that Valve will choose a bad map, or will be biased somehow. When have the creators of crossfire, undertow, subtransit and of course snark_pit shown themselves to be bad judges of maps?

Ill kill myself if a kill box wins......

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Leperous</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

I don't understand why everyone seems to think that Valve will choose a bad map,

</DIV></DIV>

reason?, set your sights low, and everything will be better when the results are in.

if you are convinced a s**t map will win, then there is no way you can be disappointed now is there?
its a no lose scenario lep :biggrin:

Leperous said:
I don't understand why everyone seems to think that Valve will choose a bad map,

reason?, set your sights low, and everything will be better when the results are in.

if you are convinced a s**t map will win, then there is no way you can be disappointed now is there?

its a no lose scenario lep :biggrin:

Then you find out that all the good mappers sent in their maps on jan
14th and fed ex didn't get any of the maps to valve and the only map
that got there was from L337_73DDY, 235,000,000 forum posts over
at steampowered.com, and he submitted killb0x_b62...

we can still lose!

oh and after that omega die.

Why do you think I went for a big flashy map straight out. If the game
play sucks ass at least the judges will be dazzled by its scale and oh
so monstrous beauty. Well that was the plan. We shall see.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting DrGlass</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>With only three people judgeing at least 2,000-3,000 maps I wonder how much time they will take on the map and what they will give the best marks for. I supose they will have the interns filter out the s**t-tastical but how will three people be able to really grasp how well a map will play?
</DIV></DIV>
Just cause only three people are official judges doesn't mean they're the only three people that get to play on the map. I'm sure the same interns can be used to fill out a server to see just how well things work.

Depot won't win. I'm 99% sure of it. Gameplay isn't the best.
Sheds are cramped, and the map is like one big line. Also, FPS will be
a concern. I think the ravenholm map on the front page has a good
chance, along with rebar by ferret.

thanks but I doubt it. Props go to mazemaster.

First off, I haven't played any of the maps, largely because I don't
have HL2. So feel free to ignore. Secondly, I'm only talking about maps
i've seen in here. Third, I haven't seen all of them, especially the
most recent ones.

If VALVe is looking for something that ties in very well with the HL2
world, I believe that the Ravenholm map is quite good, at least from
the screens. If they're looking for something with a lot of pizzazz,
which might not play so well, and doesn't necessarily look like any
locale in HL2, I think dm_district stands a good chance. If they want a
map which looks good, plays well and sort-of ties in with the HL2 theme, it's
mazemaster's island17.

I've judged gameplay solely from the screens though. I know that's a bad idea but its all I can do.