Screening of New Members

I've been thinking it might be necessary in the future to screen new
members to the site, to ensure that they understand something about
forum etiquette and most importantly how the SnarkPit and most other
mapping forums operate. If not this then perhaps a trial period where
any legitimate complaints against them will result in a rejection of
membership.

Most members on the site are great, and I'm not attacking any new
people. However it seems that some individuals do not know how to
behave. I'm not being elitist, and I don't want the SnarkPit to become
elitist. However I think we want to make sure that everyones experience
at the SnarkPit is a pleasant and constructive one.

Fair enough some of us can be crabby at times, myself included, its
called being human. I'm not talking about that, and I'm not talking
about legitimate debate that occaisionally gets out of hand. I am however talking about open hostility
between members or towards other members.

It's just a suggestion, but one that may be need to be implemented.

mayb make people who 'behave ' better gold members and people who behave bad kicked, and normal people just regular members, gold members getting more map space etc.

regular: 1 map allowed
1 file

gold: 10 maps
10 files
tutorials
etc. etc. etc.

(for example)

or make some forums restricted untill youre a 'gold' member, thay way you could encourage people to behave good for mor priveliges.

Yes, i've heard that other forums do things like this. It's a good way
to keep spammers at bay. And how about a basic mapping knowledge test
before you reg (or before you plan on posting your first map. How could
you make a playable map if you don't know what rad is or consider vis
useless???)? Any newcomer should know what a brush or a compiler is.
A simple test, where you choose the correct awnser from 4 possible
awnsers. That way rather than having 10 thousand unused profiles (the
so many ppl who reg only to post a single question rather than googling
the awnser themselves) we would have 1000 USED ones. Or maybe this
isn't such a good idea? Hmm...

Oh, and regular members just ONE map?!? Give me a break! :sad:

I don't expect anyone new to this website to be able to instantly know how to use it properly (though it is simple really) though I am giving more "repeat-offenders" daily post limits nowadays... Though a small intelligence test that has nothing to do with mapping might be a good idea.

Though a small intelligence test that has nothing to do with mapping might be a good idea.

heh give them a quiz

1) You really want to tell the world about this new texture you made! Do you...

A. Go to art forum and make a thread labeled "OMFG
UBER UBER HAWR HAWR," without even putting up anything related to the
texture.

B. Go to the Half-Life 2 editing forum and make a thread with the texture

C. Disguise the texture in another Killbox? map, you
are confident people will like it just because of the texture.

D. Perform a search to make sure your texture is
original, then if you are sure it is not you create a well-thought out
thread with decent title and description, with a sample of your amazing
texture.

E.
STFU!
people on this forum dont like when you talk :biggrin: .

I can't help but feel that the map comments system is occasionally
abused. Cassius has already pointed out one "comment war", and I
spotted on Agent Smith's dm_hydro the comment:

[size=13]Yeah its overloaded and ugly as f**k what a bag of s**t
id rather be shot in the face than play this map and i bet valve are
laughing there asses of

IMHO, it looks like a damn nice map, and the other comments agree with
this. Maybe the comment is meant to be sarcastic, in which case sorry
for misinterpreting it,but comments should probably be restricted.
Maybe to two for each beta and two for each final release...

Just my opinion.

[/size]

I am aware the comment abuse goes on, but map authors have the power to delete/edit comments for their own maps...

I am aware the comment abuse goes on, but map authors have the power to delete/edit comments for their own maps...

Then again, that could be abused too.

I can see tons of evil people submitting killboxes, and editing all the comments into 'yeh, cool map, 10/10'

I've thought of that, and you can't edit the scores that people have given you... though if you wanted to up your killbox like that you could just create new users anyway. I just checked out that Mik! guy (and banned him) and it seems he'd created another user (or perhaps it was his brother? They used the same PC anyway) to big up his level.

EDIT and now with 'this comment has been edited by author/moderators* warning message goodness :smile:

I've thought of that, and you can't edit the scores that people
have given you... though if you wanted to up your killbox like that you
could just create new users anyway.

It is a sad fact that some people actually do that kind of stuff.

Anyway, I don't think a new member screening would be a good idea.
Would be a bit scary for those new members no ? When I arrived here, I
was amazed how all you guys talked about serious stuff, and went on
with it for several pages. Plus, most of you could create amazing maps.
If there was some sort of screening system, I might not have been here
at all, because everything would look so ... elite.

The bottom line is that there is no fool-proof way of preventing people
from acting irresponsibly and inappropriately, using any sort of rigid,
"bot-like" system.

However, the wonderful moderators for the Pit do a good job of banning
and punishing these offenders before things get out of hand.
That's why it's impossible to replace these human elements in managing
a forum or any online community. Sure, it's possible to sneak
around the rating system and abuse the comments, but it's virtually
impossible to fool an intelligent human being.

I believe any strict "cast system" would be undemocratic. Limit
new users the use of the forum would be defeating the purpose of the
forum in the first place. They undoubtedly have mapping questions
to ask (and most of them would be fairly legitimate). If they
already know all the mapping knowledge, why would they even bother
coming to the Pit?

And restricting "stupid" users reminds me of the eugenics practiced by
the Nazi's. Why shouldn't we just endorse the government to
sterilize these idiots so they don't even reproduce? We don't
want retards to populate this planet, right?

This type of thinking is indeed extremely dangerous. And if you
actually briefly considered the possibility mentioned above, I would
try hiding those Nazi flags in your room better. Don't show your
new girlfriend the Hitler poster on your wall until you're sure that
she's a white supremist also.

I don't think screening is a good idea at all.

It's probably simpler to make a page with a simple set of rules, and
make it the first thing a new member sees after he registers. If the
member breaks any of the rules, the mods can warn him a couple of
times, and then hit the big red button.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting satchmo</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>And restricting "stupid" users reminds me of the eugenics practiced by the Nazi's. Why shouldn't we just endorse the government to sterilize these idiots so they don't even reproduce? We don't want retards to populate this planet, right?

This type of thinking is indeed extremely dangerous. And if you actually briefly considered the possibility mentioned above, I would try hiding those Nazi flags in your room better. Don't show your new girlfriend the Hitler poster on your wall until you're sure that she's a white supremist also.
</DIV></DIV>
That analogy is completely over the top :razz: We have every right to ban/limit members who act "stupid" (how are we meant to know what they're like in real life?). And of course "stupid" people have a right to life, but should they be allowed to attempt mapping if it's clear that they'll just fail, and annoy other people in the process? This is just a leisure activity for most, not some right protected by UN conventions

Satchmo, do you think the only club in the world to have a screening process for its members is the KKK?

[edit]meh, orph beat me[/edit]

I think I had like 600 snark marks with in my first few weeks of being here. If I can make it in here anyone can

I haven't been around as much of late, dibbling with my travel plans
has cut out chunks of my time (always spent productively otherwise, of
course!)

Even then we rarely moderate, that is the beauty of the situation, but
I agree in essence with trying to maintain a decent standard of forums.
I don't have any good plans though, so forgive me :razz:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Loco</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I can't help but feel that the map comments system is occasionally abused. Cassius has already pointed out one "comment war"
</DIV></DIV>

Uh, it wasn't much of a war really, and I highly doubt any of that was abusive. Pointless and accomplished nothing yes, abusive no.
It is bad though that for the six maps I've reviewed three authors have personally complained to me about what they received and one guy voluntarily removed his download link. I don't know how any map reviewing can be done when authors are breathing down your neck ready to throw down demanding a better score for their killboxes. Apparently nobody can accept the harsh reality of their maps anymore?

This has been something I've been thinking about for a while, but I
posted it after a map comment made by me resulted in a pretty
aggressive, and also pretty childish, attack on me and my map. I come
to the SnarkPit because I know its one of the better mapping forums
around, where most members respect each other, offer and accept advice,
and generally get along really well. I would hate to see it become
another Steam forums or the like, where the these things no longer
exist. I'm sure most members share my feelings on the matter, and would
like to see the SnarkPit keep and continue its great atmosphere and
community.

The Snarkpit is quickly becoming the premiere HL2 editing site. Don't fu*k it up by instituting draconian measures.

i agree with fraggard.

Compared to other forums, the snarkpit has been quite spared from morons, until the hl2-related influx, but this will quiet down after a while. And i think this "being spared of morons" is due to the few harsh guys here that yell noobs to their place when they cross the line. Only the real stuborn morons persist in trying to wage those flamewars where its everyone against one. For those the post-limit is already a great idea.

So the thing remains about comment-wars, which is indeed a persisting problem (and could be expanded to user-rating wars). I think in this case a moderator should be informed, who can delete all comments and rates resulting from such war. But, as ForceFlow said, dont give that power to the mapper in question.

I've managed forums before. It can be quite a thankless task and, in
truth, it's the tiny handful that ruin things. :smile: All I can say
is that this is the most responsive and helpful mapping community I've
found for Source. Great job all of you who've made this place so
kickin'.

lep said:
I just checked out that Mik! guy (and banned him) and it seems he'd created another user (or perhaps it was his brother? They used the same PC anyway) to big up his level.

I had a feeling his 10/10 rating was planted.

i think something needs to be added to tell people to click "yes" above
persons post if they answered the question, I see people posting well
thought answers or just the plain solution and they dont get their
"yes" clicked because the poster didnt bother (or didnt know)

It seems to me that a lot of the assholes from Half-Life 2 World are
seeping into Snarkpit. Half-Life 2 World is a fantastic place where
people create wonderful things...Too bad everyone there feels they are
too f**king 'good' for your time and you should take your dumb ass and
rot in some godforsaken hole.

Loco said:
I can't help but feel that the map comments system is occasionally abused. Cassius has already pointed out one "comment war"

Uh, it wasn't much of a war really, and I highly doubt any of that
was abusive. Pointless and accomplished nothing yes, abusive no.

It is bad though that for the six maps I've reviewed three
authors have personally complained to me about what they received and
one guy voluntarily removed his download link. I don't know how any map
reviewing can be done when authors are breathing down your neck ready
to throw down demanding a better score for their killboxes. Apparently
nobody can accept the harsh reality of their maps anymore?

Oh right. OK. :smile: Sorry about that - misninterpreted it slightly!
Nevertheless, putting the equivalent of a university thesis
(metaphorically) in the comment box to respond to a review is slightly
excessive. The comments I refer to were by no means your fault, just a
result of another killbox. By "abused" I meant the system was being
used for the wrong purposes - debates rather than helpful comments
about the map. Perhaps "misused" would have been better rather than
"abused" - sorry about the wording.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting mazemaster</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>The Snarkpit is quickly becoming the premiere HL2 editing site. Don't fu*k it up by instituting draconian measures. </DIV></DIV>

there is a vast difference between enforcing proper etiquette and draconian measures maze.

if, proper protocol is adhered to, no one but the offensive members will ever complain. the only problem is, establishing exactly what is "proper"

i personally agree with 90% of every rule we have, the other 10% i bitch about incessantly, but i do not think there is such a thing as liking something 100% so its only normal to me.
IMO, i would support even our current system, "IF" it were adhered to 100% of the time. its not perfect, but it is serviceable. stupid people should be given at least one chance. the day they sign up. after that shrugs

The Snarkpit is quickly becoming the premiere HL2 editing site. Don't fu*k it up by instituting draconian measures.

Ok, and let the spammers and flamers f*ck it up instead? And what's so
draconical in filtering potential members? YOU like quality members,
don't you? And besides, I don't see Leperous with an axe knocking on
your door "you have flamed, prepare to be executed!".

Don't worry, CS has been around for a long time and it'll always breed the same "asshats", I know how to deal with them :razz:

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Don't worry, CS has been around for a long time and it'll always breed the same "asshats", I know how to deal with them :razz:

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
theres that alltime favorite phrase.....still kills me...

Lep, my epidermally impaired brother, you are one of the most even handed forum jockeys i have ever encountered....personally, i think this is one of the most well managed, and all matter encompassing places to go.....yes, there are "asshats" that drop in from time to time, (the many faces of Rugal jumps to mind) but overall, you and your crew do a fine job...nothing is perfect, utopia is but a dream....keep up the good work, and may the mapping Gods smite the loquasious few who endeavor to f**k it up for the rest of us.... :wink:

and jon, we still love ya....//// runs

Dr Brasso... :dodgy:

edit>>> i still want my dadgum snarkmarks back tho bud....///runs again

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Dr Brasso</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
and jon, we still love ya....//// runs

</DIV></DIV>

always a bridesmaid, never a bride

why am i always a footnote in the success of this site :/
goes and sulks quietly in corner

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<TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: gold" bgColor=black>? posted by Orpheus</TD>
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<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Dr Brasso</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
and jon, we still love ya....//// runs

</DIV></DIV>

always a bridesmaid, never a bride

why am i always a footnote in the success of this site :/
goes and sulks quietly in corner

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
umm...you have big feet, and they make big noise... :dodgy: ...and it isnt quite the same without ya bud..... :razz:

***waves, throws box of Kleenex at Jon, and re-commences marathon....

Doc B... :dodgy:

XXXOOOXXX

I think I had like 600 snark marks with in my first few weeks of being here. If I can make it in here anyone can

i dont even think i have 600 snarkmarks now... = / ive been in here for like a while.

i dont even think i have 600 snarkmarks now... = / ive been in here for like a while.

That's because DrGlass wrote a tutorial and made tons of comments for maps and in the forum.

I blame this article: http://www.planetannihilation.com/features/articles/community/

Yeah tutorials give you a whole heck of a lot of snarkmarks, I went from like 20 to over 400 because of one tutorial. I'm guessing maps also would give quite a few.

I think screening is a bit unnecessary at the moment. Like lep said somewhere, as long as its much easier to get rid of the trash than it is for them to come back, there shouldn't be too many problems.

sometimes a new member will come crashing in the door, arse over tit, but still get enough chances to satisfy even the most forgiving of members, before Lep will hit the big red button.

i'd say the 'give a guy a chance' attitude that the pit has is better than you'll find anywhere else, and doesn't need to be extended to include any kind of screening.

I don't think screening would work. But perhaps a 1 month probation
where you get one warning, and the boot if you do something again.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting fishy</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>arse over tit, </DIV></DIV>
I don't think it's necessary to screen people, just to clearly state what we expect of a regular and to enforce that behavior. Stuff like decent spelling/grammar, spending time on posts, at least somewhat prolonged involvement in the community (not just coming to post a map or an editing question), and contributing helpful comments on maps or on the site in general should be written standards, not unwritten ones, for new members.

Screening could work. Honestly, it's not that often that a new member of exceptional talent comes around (have there been any in the last year or so besides keved?) and it's very often that somebody completely ignorant to our 'unwritten standards' comes around and pisses us all off. 'Applying Members' would show that they have quality material to contribute, in whatever form that may take.

It would be much easier to make some things that disruptive new members do against the rules. Here are my suggestions:

1. No posting mod ideas or recruitment threads without a website and media to show.

2. Be civil and fair in both reviewing maps and responding to criticism.

3. Spelling and grammar should be kept to a level where it does not distract from the content or tone of a post.

4. All personal arguments should be kept to PM's (I'm terrible at this, I know, but I try).

5. Some standard for image sizes - perhaps not catering to even the s**ttiest connection, but keeping an image as small as possible without distracting from the content of the shot.

6. Some standard of community involvement should be expected - posting a map or editing question and then leaving should not be simply looked down upon, but against the rules. To get comments on a map, it should be required of new members to make comments on other maps. (Perhaps that should be the probation - new users should be prevented from posting threads in Editing and Maps for a month, and General for a shorter period of time).

And if somebody goes against those standards knowingly, they should be put on posting probation, SA Forums style. Honestly, it would cause us more grief to yell at each disruptive member individually for not acting within 'unwritten standards' than to simply silence people for purposefully being asses.

I like what cas is saying. Perhapse when they are registering
they should go through an unofficial contracts stating that they need
to follow these rules:

1. No posting mod ideas or recruitment threads without a website and media to show.

2. Be civil and fair in both reviewing maps and responding to criticism.

3. Spelling and grammar should be kept to a level where it does not distract from the content or tone of a post.

4. All personal arguments should be kept to PM's (I'm terrible at this, I know, but I try).

5. Some standard for image sizes - perhaps not catering to even the
s**ttiest connection, but keeping an image as small as possible without
distracting from the content of the shot.

6. Some standard of community involvement should be expected -
posting a map or editing question and then leaving should not be simply
looked down upon, but against the rules. To get comments on a map, it
should be required of new members to make comments on other maps. (Perhaps
that should be the probation - new users should be prevented from
posting threads in Editing and Maps for a month, and General for a
shorter period of time).

I don't see why people should be forced to wait before posting their maps or be forced to make comments. It'll only drive away potentially good mappers. Besides, I'd rather have no involvement over forced involvement. People should want to comment, not be pushed into doing so. Not allowing new people to post maps defeats the purpose of this site, plus if you look at most of the people who signed up and never participated in the community almost none of them have posted maps in their profiles.

What should be done is to simply say at signup: "If you expect people to comment or critique your map then you should return the favor and comment on other people's maps."

And really, why do we need to prevent people from posting if they are new? If they've lurked at all and learned a little about the community there's no reason to additionally punish them. I'd say all forced probationary periods and waiting times are unnecessary and really prove nothing about the person other than they have patience, and the negatives far outweigh the positives.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Cassius</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>6. Some standard of community involvement should be expected - posting a map or editing question and then leaving should not be simply looked down upon, but against the rules. To get comments on a map, it should be required of new members to make comments on other maps. (Perhaps that should be the probation - new users should be prevented from posting threads in Editing and Maps for a month, and General for a shorter period of time).</DIV></DIV>

I don't think they should be prevented from entering general banter ... I don't think chatting with the community is a bad idea :smile: Preventing threads in the editing section for a month seems a little to much, for instance, what if a newbie genuinly comes up against a problem they can't figure out within the first month? I'd say more about a week really -- they should be able to do all their bug fixing/searching within that time.
Also, I was kinda surprised when I noticed that most newbies sign up only for the editing forum -- despite that I was one of the most despised newbies of all time, my first post here was in the maps forum. :biggrin:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Cassius</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

4. All personal arguments should be kept to PM's (I'm terrible at this, I know, but I try).

</DIV></DIV>

keep in mind that if you want this to be carried out in all justice, the moderators are gonna have to be harsh to their buddies that break this rule sometimes.

Its going to be hard, even for the oldschoolers, for 2 reasons:

1) lazyness or simply being fired up in a certain discussion and forgetting the rule for a minute. (mostly)

2) wanting to be e-cool in front of e-buddies by bashing someone into the ground.

I don't appreciate any sort of system which looks to limit the usage of the site for new members. Problems are rare and dealt with fairly on a case by case basis, and I see no reason to depart from this system.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting G.Ballblue</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
despite that I was one of the most despised newbies of all time, my first post here was in the maps forum. :biggrin:

</DIV></DIV>
You know something G.Ballblue I have alot of respect for you. You have indeed taken alot of crap upon arriving here, and not once have I seen you lose your cool. Hats off bro.

About having a screening process. I think things are fine just the way they are. The mods do a good job and the community has a high (but not TOO strict) standard. Things are good here. Besides that I think most of the hl2 onslaught is starting to subside.

Screening would only work if the people doing it were committed to the idea. no half hearted attempts, or token offers.

i do not think one is needed here, but on the same note, i detest members who only arrive to post their maps and leave. when someone arrives with a completed map and it shows obvious signs that it truly needed our input, it should not be permitted to remain.

i do not however feel that members should have to participate in the questions/answers process. some would never post, if they were forced to comment elsewhere, and even if they never show up again. the database benefits from the question, even if it only shows that no one can answer it.

we all have our niggles, mine is abhorrent screen shot sizes, Cassius's is spelling, etc.etc. but when our niggles effect our judgment, then we need to assess our priorities. i do not allow my image thing to effect my views of the maps themselves, just the asswipe who posted them.

bottomline, we don't need one at this time. i do however feel that if a member of note, notices something that needs addressed, that it should be taken quite seriously, even if its only done via PM.

I don't appreciate any sort of system which looks to limit the
usage of the site for new members. Problems are rare and dealt with
fairly on a case by case basis, and I see no reason to depart from this
system.

Seconded.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Cash Car Star</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I don't appreciate any sort of system which looks to limit the usage of the site for new members. Problems are rare and dealt with fairly on a case by case basis, and I see no reason to depart from this system.</DIV></DIV>
The system I've got going now does that- whacking a daily post limit on certain annoying members- and coupled with wanton topic deletion (along with a PM to notify you) I think everything's under control without going too far :wink:

On a similar topic, SomethingAwful have had a go at the HL2World forums and all the n00bs there

Thank goodness we don't have anyone, or many people, like that. Damn :razz: .

I think screening people is probably taking it a bit far (yes I know, I
was the lame arse who suggested it), but perhaps a trial period might
be the way to go.

The new member is given full privelages available to every other
member, but they have to go through a 1-2 month trial period. I've
noticed that most of the new members who do go off the deep end seem to
do it almost as soon as they join up. When a new member joins they are
told of the trial period in which any hanky panky will result in first
a warning and revoking of most privelages, and if they continue on the
same way, a lifetime or 1 year bannning, you can decide the punishment.

The system wouldn't be hard to implement, with the general community
keeping an eye on the behavior of the new member. If they do act up a
moderator is contacted who takes the appropriate measures against them.

It's essentially the same as what we have now except the new member is
aware of the code of conduct and subsequent consequences of breaking it
from the get go, encouraging better behaviour from the beginning. The trial
period would then serve as an adjustment period, where the new member
can get the hang of how the code of conduct and the general community
operates.