Snarkpit today isn't the same place as Snarkpit of lore, why?

Course, you may see it better today or worse, but it is different, Why?

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

I voted 4, but I think it's a combination of 1 and 4.

The oldtimers set the standard and led by example. I personally
only caught the end of Orpheus' tenure here, and never got a chance to
hang around gwil or others, but immediately upon joining I got the
sense that SP was a unique forum. People took the time to write
out large paragraphs describing how they felt. They offered
generous criticism and gave the most valuable commodity (time)
freely.

There are certainly members of this group that I respect who are still
here. People like ReNo and Crono and many others. But at
the same time there is an influx of new faces and with so many at once
the tone of the forums has changed. I hope that they "find their
groove" as you put it, and move into the realm of mature dialogue.

I personally think its a combination of things, very hard to narrow down to a specific vote. Even though I posted this thread it was difficult for me to actually post 6 legitimate things to vote upon.

Personally I feel its different for:

• HL1 is different than HL2. Better in many aspects.
• The oldtimers left. They left for many reasons but I feel specifically because the flavor of the new arrivals told them it was time to leave.
• The new arrivals are not of the same caliber. Not bad, just different. The most vocal of the newer members are not leaders like the old members whom are either quiet, or retired.
• Many of the newer members are immature. Many of the old members arrived immature and grew out of it. Hopefully the same will occur again.
• Many of the old members simple out grew Snarkpit. I feel they will return once they discover that there is no true outgrowth. Its simply a case of mistaken perceptions. Many of the old members were old enough to have a real life and be here. Those that think they out grew Snarkpit, will realize their mistake and return.... Eventually.
• In a few cases, I can think of at least one, the new members actually made it unpleasant enough to not remain. Battling for ones old place in the hierarchy is not fun for most individuals.
  </LI>

I voted "Other"

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

5. If you look around other mapping communities, you'll notice that they're generally not that strong
either. HL2 content just takes more time because of higher standards -
but whether those standards are reasonable or rational is another story
entirely. For example, I see people complain about
Minerva
because it didn't have new weapons, which doesn't really make any
sense, but that's just how the map/mod community is now.

I think Snarkpit has had it's worst time now. A few months ago, a lot
of old-timers left more or less, but there's some new influx and I
think it's going up again. HL2 just changed much more than we expected,
and it's different indeed though not necessarily worse. It takes time
to adjust and some people are just not comfortable with the way
level-design changes, while others are. Though I do think HL2 mapping
is less popular than HL mapping, because it's not so new anymore and it
costs much more time to get a quality map done.

---

Create-ivity - a game development blog

Captain P said:
Though I do think HL2 mapping is less popular than HL mapping, because it's not so new anymore and it costs much more time to get a quality map done.

I disagree. A map, if its content reflects 100% of the authors ability to produce is exactly the same as HL1 was. What is different is the people judging the maps. I see harsh words where none should exist. People forget what it was like when they were just beginning. People also have a horrible habit of comparing works from one author to the next. BAD, very bad.

If the mindset now, was what it was in Snarkpits peak, then the mapping would reflect this. I see no critiques. I see criticism, without basis. I see homages paid when they are due, but sometimes because there is a name associated with the map.

If we would get back to basics. Promote basic mapping again then Snarkpit would approach its roots once more.

Ask yourselves this, "when was the last time you took a total newbie and helped them with no though as to any return on your investments"? I have seen very little or none of this in recent months.

Snarkpit lost something it may find difficult to recapture. This much I know for sure. The return will not happen till you admit its missing.

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

5. If you look around other mapping communities, you'll notice that they're generally not that strong
either. HL2 content just takes more time because of higher standards -
but whether those standards are reasonable or rational is another story
entirely. For example, I see people complain about
Minerva
because it didn't have new weapons, which doesn't really make any
sense, but that's just how the map/mod community is now.

I fully agree. A bit of the mapping community died with HL2, sadly.

---

"Azelito, stop being a f**king bitch. All I see you do is complain and insult people in your recent posts. We don't care, go find a razor you emo pansy..." -Windows98

I think it's the newcomers who cannot get their feet down.

And ofcourse, the old ones gone :sad:

Oh well, we'll live :smile:

---

HL2 tutorials 'n' stuff: http://madedog.pri.ee
217.159.236.34:27050 - CSS Server - Clean | koffer.ee

I disagree. A map, if its content reflects 100% of the authors ability to produce is exactly the same as HL1 was.

Add the extensive model usage, the custom material system, and the fact
that most HL2 content is already now feeling overused or uninspiring,
then I think we can safely conclude quality HL2 maps take more time.

I agree that we should be less harsh and more constructive, maybe
that's what got lost... Not that I was around a lot in Snarkpit's top
days, but hey, we could do it again...

---

Create-ivity - a game development blog

Captain P said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I disagree. A map, if its content reflects 100% of the authors ability to produce is exactly the same as HL1 was.

Add the extensive model usage, the custom material system, and the fact that most HL2 content is already now feeling overused or uninspiring, then I think we can safely conclude quality HL2 maps take more time.

</div></div>

You seem to have misunderstood my intent. I did not claim that its the same degree of difficulty when producing the HL2 maps. What I meant was, if the author gives 100% of their ability in creating the map then they deserve 100% of your respect for doing so.

If say the author has 3 months experience, and produces a map worthy of a 3 month author, you cannot compare them to a vet with years under their belt.

THATS whats been lost.

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

It may be only a symptom but look at this thread. A topic of this nature should at the very least be mildly interesting to everyone who logs on yet,...

Something was definitely lost.

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

It's been less than 3 and a half hours... many members of the community
have yet to even see this thread. While perhaps this thread's
lukewarm reception is indicative of a current trend, I think its more a
function of time.

I voted 3. Goddamed newcomers.

---

Reckless disregard for childrens well being, women and nothing but utter contempt for other cultures.

It's a mix between 1 and 4... I think that most of the newcomers don't even really post...

I think HL was easier to map for and came about in a time when less people were into computer games. Also the age group that bought HL is very different from the group that buys HL2. we have people who were in Elementary school during HL who are playing HL2 and joining the Snarkpit.

It's about a lack of maturity and a lack of knowledge of basic internet etiquite. Instead of becoming a member, and posting your mapping questions, people join and immediatly use thier thread priviledges to make post with links to stuff that makes eternal popups and stuff that brings up tubgirl or some crap... Sure they think it's funny, but it's ruining a community that was one of, if not the best for HL mapping and discussion.

The people who were in highschool and middle school during the times of HL are now in college and may not have enough time to devote to SP as do the new generation, who is tsill in highschool or middleschool.

Also, our URL changed to .net and probably lost some ppl in the process. (dang it c**ktagone!)

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

When all this is done, we'll all have a group hug and toast the good 'ol days.

<DIV class=quotetitle>? posted by Addicted to Morphine</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>It's been less than 3 and a half hours... many members of the community have yet to even see this thread. While perhaps this thread's lukewarm reception is indicative of a current trend, I think its more a function of time.</DIV>
I'd agree with you except, it was posted during the highpoint of today, not the low side.

Sure, its probably just me whining, but...

(goes and gets a tissue)

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

4

im fairly new and in a lot of cases i dont feel like i can put worthwhile input

but im working on that

BTW, who voted the other, "Other" besides myself?

For the record. I'd like to say that I meant no offense to any of the new members about the different caliber comment. I personally have no complaints about anyone thus far that I have met here. I have some reservations about a few, but no complaints. My comment basically stated that I felt that the older members set a standard that none, or damned few now maintain. In other words, there are few if any real leaders left. Many vocal members but none I'd follow into a knife fight as they say.

With that said (and I bet it was more than I should have) g'nite to you all. Its time for this fella to go to bed.

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

What I've found to be a major hinderance is the fact that you are no
longer able to pull textures from various mods together into one map.
I'd always take stuff from cs, dod, ts, and other custom wads and put
them together into one map. The whole thing about not being allowed to
use cs:s textures in anything outside of cs is bulls**t. Particularly
when textures are so much harder to make with the new engine. Thats
what has hindered my mapping. The HL2 textures are already out of date
and over-used.

---

Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'

Agent Smith said:
What I've found to be a major hinderance is the fact that you are no longer able to pull textures from various mods together into one map. I'd always take stuff from cs, dod, ts, and other custom wads and put them together into one map. The whole thing about not being allowed to use cs:s textures in anything outside of cs is bulls**t. Particularly when textures are so much harder to make with the new engine. Thats what has hindered my mapping. The HL2 textures are already out of date and over-used.

I also disagree with this as well. No offense to Mr. Smith but the true artists of HL1 took what they had and still created originality. Creation is exactly that. Pulling the art out of a chunk of rock/stone or just plain s**t. I know you are looking at me like "What the f**k does he know" but I am here to tell you that my maps folder for HL1 measured in the gigs. I saw and played everything to come down the pike and some of my favorites were invariably stock HL1 textured maps. Just because a texture says floor, doesn't mean it has to be used that way. Same with any other texture set. If you can get what you want out of a machine gun texture, by all means use the damned thing.

Anyway, being uncreative and blaming your texture choices is a poor excuse.

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

I think its just because HL2 is so new, its capabilities arent yet known. HL1 editing was all about seeing how far the old engine could be pushed. Also, HL1 could run on pretty much anyones computer by 2002 or so, which helped. Steam probably has something to do with it as well, but then again, it shouldnt be so much of a problem when we all have over a gig of ram.

Still, it was nice when Hammer was a standalone program.

---

"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"

• My yr11 Economics teacher

I don't have over a gig of ram. I have half, in fact.

HL2 is still REALLY new. Half the people here didn't own HL1 with in the first two years of it coming out ... hl2 hasn't been out for a year yet.

There's been no good community made mods yet. (If you remember, CS took awhile to make "the scene" ... and what about dod? ... ts?)

The point is it took time. It only seems like hl2 is a waste right now because A) everyone was used to owning up and controlling the previous engine. B) You have been waiting for hl2 since you got your hands on hl1 ... which builds expectations ... which can ruin anything. C) It's harder to do. Big deal? HL1 still exists, you know. If you prefer it, map/mod for that. I'm sure the engine could be tweaked even more.

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Perhaps you should check out my HL1 work before you accuse me of being
uncreative Underdog. I've produced some of this communities most unique
maps over the last couple of years. I like to work with as much content
as I can, because it gives me the most options when creating a map. A
combination of various textures provides a different look and feel to
the stock set, which is always recognisable.

And yes, you should attempt some mapping before commenting on how easy
or hard it is. That has been my major beef with the mapping community
that has developed since the release of HL2. A bunch of newbs come in
and tell everyone how its supposed to be done, without ever
contributing content themselves.

And I have to ask whether you measured the worth of the HL1 map by its
gameplay or by its aesthetic qualities. I've seen plenty of HL1 and 2
maps that play great but are as ugly as sin through poor construction
and texturing, as well as the reverse.

Also by locking much of the content within its specific mod, Valve
isn't helping a large portion of the community. It was the ability to
mix and match textures, models and sounds that gave rise to many of the
best maps produced. Not everyone has access to a texture artist or
modeller, or the time to make such content themselves.

No offence taken.

---

Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'

Underdog said:
good 'ol days.

if you were here in the good old days, why did you lurk so long and only signed up during the big HL2 influx ?

On topic: i think there are 2 seperate issues: 1)our community 2)HL2.

1)

-It's not that every newcomers' words are painful to read (guys like
FatStrings, jake, gaara, ... are nice), but a few ruin a lot. The
difficulty is that snarkpit, being a nice and openminded community, has
a hard time imposing measures. I liked the temporary ban that was
imposed on some hard-learners when they first came here. They grew into
mature nice guys. (e.g. Dark).

-you can't expect the vets to comment on every map. The way it usually
goes, and as i too learned it, is that they only start commenting when
they partly like (aspects of) it. So even if they're harsh, it's
actually a "compliment". For a review, they have to see something
special in it. Or you have to be friends with them.. /2cents

2)

I follow Wil5on and Crono's opinions on this. HL1 mapping was fun
because you had a goal: making something special by pushing the limits.
HL2 mapping is "limitless" and thus poses no feeling of achievement for
most. On the contrary, they see other ppl's work and get frustrated,
saying it's too much work.

---

These words are my diaries screaming out loud

Crono said:
I don't have over a gig of ram. I have half, in fact.

So do I. And because of this, it takes a while for hammer to load on our machines, its slow browsing textures, compared with 3.5. 3.5 would behave similarly on a minimum spec machine (around the 133mhz/32mb mark). Once hardware gets to the stage where you can load up hammer in less than a few seconds, browse textures smoothly, and compile/run small test maps from hammer with few ingame problems, HL2 mapping will be what HL1 mapping was at its peak: something you could do all day without being distracted by your computer slowing down.

---

"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"

• My yr11 Economics teacher

I said that the new comers suck :razz: Because Im a new comer, and I suck!

---

I would love to change the world, But they would'nt give me the source code.

I dont think this place is boring though :smile: I just wish it had a
shout-box. That would make such a diffrence! You can get shout box
scripts for PHP free, anyway! Just look at www.twhl.co.za . It has a
shout-box. They are damb nice things to have.

---

I would love to change the world, But they would'nt give me the source code.

I kinda miss PFL's constant flamewars though. And the n00bs. They were kinda funny :biggrin: .

Hehe! Dont worry, I am certainly gonna fill in the place-holder for n00b :razz:

---

I would love to change the world, But they would'nt give me the source code.

Mix between 1 and 5 i think.... i mean 1 is kinda obvious. but because
the quality in HL2 mapping is so much harder and not realy as enjoyable
to do. most people have lost intrest. im just using this forum as a
forum... not realy as a mapping forum. if you get what i mean..

---

Indeed. HL2 mapping is much tougher than HL1 mapping. Also HL2 mapping is definitely not for
lazy people since with the olde HL you could make something cool with
relative ease, high-detail burshwork being out of the question.

i voted 'other', because you're question assumes that everyone finds it boring here. if it made me bored, i wouldn't be here, simple as that.

---

i eat paint

Agreed! Because of HL2's engine you are expected to spend 5 hours on 1 tiny little room detailing it.

---

I would love to change the world, But they would'nt give me the source code.

Agent Smith said:
Perhaps you should check out my HL1 work before you accuse me of being uncreative Underdog.

If you made any maps for HL1, I had them. If they were as well constructed as you think, I knew it as well.

Agent Smith said:
And yes, you should attempt some mapping before commenting on how easy or hard it is.

Same question that I propose to Mr. Blister. Post an HL1 related mapping question and see if I do not answer it satisfactorily enough to satisfy you.

Agent Smith said:
And I have to ask whether you measured the worth of the HL1 map by its gameplay or by its aesthetic qualities. I've seen plenty of HL1 and 2 maps that play great but are as ugly as sin through poor construction and texturing, as well as the reverse.

I consider any map well made if it's within the best of the creators ability to produce. I have seen maps so ugly that you wonder how it compiled successfully yet played superb. I have seen maps aesthetically beautiful that play like a stone through a window. I measure creativity by my own standards, and do not seek counsel from anyone to verify them as fair or not.

Agent Smith said:
No offence taken.

Nor, intended.

BlisTer said:
if you were here in the good old days, why did you lurk so long and only signed up during the big HL2 influx ?

I realize that this is a Snarkpit related question, but why do you assume that thats all there is to it? What makes you think that I have not been, nor am active elsewhere? Post me an HL1 map editing question and see if I cannot answer it adequately and see exactly how much knowledge about the HL1 engine I do not possess.

Andrei said:
I kinda miss PFL's constant flamewars though.

Which reminds me. We all need to take a moment to mourn a lost informational source. Prefabland has apparently died. I will miss its uniqueness. :sad: It seems that PFL went the direction of a lot of other HL1 related websites. Lurkers Lair and the original Wavelength among them.

fishy said:
i voted 'other', because you're question assumes that everyone finds it boring here. if it made me bored, i wouldn't be here, simple as that.

You are here for reasons unique to yourself. Why that is is beyond me but its not exactly unpleasant either.I find your disposition entertaining. I come here also for reasons that are my own. Anonymity among them. I assume nothing BTW. I post questions that best suit MY intent, not yours. If I assumed anything it was, why you do not post threads of your own to be disrupted instead of the other way around every time you log on. :biggrin:

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

I haven't been around for quite a while, but I do remember this site
being more interesting 'back in the day,' when i was a noob. I think
its somewhat of a combination of #1 and #4, but moreso 1 because if
some of the vets were around or posting more often I think they would
set an example for the newcomers. I think though, that if your favorite
'hang-out' becomes a place where you have to keep the new kids on the
block (lots of them) in line it becomes an unenjoyable place to be.
With the large influx of new members from HL2 and the distribution of
the SDK through Steam, lots of people who had no idea what it takes to
make a real map joined up. Nobody told me I could make maps for HL1, I
found out because I was interested. With Valve releasing the SDK on
Steam and announcing "j00 can maek maps now!!1" I think the average
caliber of 'mappers' fell. But since it takes dedication to make 'real'
maps, I think the newcomers with potential will 'fall into their
groove,' and the noobs who call themselves mappers because they made an
unlit killbox will lose interest (eventually).

/rambling2cents

Edit: And just as a point of interest, I have released one map,
finished maybe three, three and a half, abandoned too many to count,
and am currently working on two. This is how I think beginning mappers
should do it, don't release every killbox you fast-compile. The one map
I've released isn't on this site because its nothing particularly
interesting, complicated, or beautiful, or even mildly attractive.

---

o

Baron, if it ain't a killbox, post it on up. It doesn't matter if the
map isn't the best ever made. Even if its only average, any commentary
you might get is always invaluable.

In fact I had a trip down memory lane when the archived Pit of yester
year was up on the forums. It had my first release in the reviews. A 3
out of 10, reviewed by Mikee (Champion reviewer from way back when),
with the comment that it wasn't that good, but at least it wasn't a
killbox. I had the unfortunate misfortune of naming it after a map that
already existed (which I didn't know about at the time), and Mikee said
it essentially wasn't worth replacing the other. A bit of a kick in the
crotch, but my next map Blizzard did really well.

---

Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Underdog</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting fishy</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>i voted 'other', because you're question assumes that everyone finds it boring here. if it made me bored, i wouldn't be here, simple as that.

</DIV></DIV>

You are here for reasons unique to yourself. Why that is is beyond me but its not exactly unpleasant either.

</DIV></DIV>

you find it hard to understand that i would do something for my own reasons? were you in the army, by any chance?

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

I find your disposition entertaining. I come here also for reasons that are my own. Anonymity among them.

</DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>

i feel i should crack a joke here, by i don't like the idea of being type cast.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

I assume nothing BTW. I post questions that best suit MY intent, not yours.

"Why do YOU think its boring around here?"

</DIV></DIV>

well, even if you personally don't make any assumptions, your question certainly does.

<DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>If I assumed anything it was, why you do not post threads of your own to be disrupted instead of the other way around every time you log on. :biggrin: </DIV>

i didn't realise that answering a question set in a thread title was being disruptive.

and as this is a primarily a mapping forum, i tend to lean towards using it as such, which is possibly reflected with my 'new threads started' being lower than my 'editing questions solved' stats.
if this post is seen by you as further evidence of my disruptive ways, then i suppose i can live with that.

</DIV>

---

i eat paint

Baron, if it ain't a killbox, post it on up.

And even if it is, post it up. I'll give it an impartial and
encouraging review like this one
http://www.snarkpit.net/features.php?page=reviews&id=90 :evilgrin: .

You're alright Fishy. I personally do not care if its reciprocated or not.

If "How" I post questions is not to your liking, then the answer is obvious. Chose only the ones that fit your viewpoint on "Proper" and leave the rest alone. There is no law that states "Fishy must reply here"

It might bring your post count down but, perhaps thats not a concern either.

If you really find anything I type objectionable in any way, thats alright to. You'll get over it... Someday.

I would advise though, stop nitpicking. It doesn't suit you.

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

i don't find it objectionable. like i say, i was only replying to the thread topic. there's no law that says i can't do that either. in these times of political correctness, someone needs to play the devils advocate. an oldie like you must appreciate that. :biggrin:

---

i eat paint

fishy said:
an oldie like you must appreciate that. :biggrin:

Sadly, I know all to well. Thankyou for putting me in my place, and bring prespective to this thread.

I stand corrected.

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

I voted 1, lots of old memebers really left, and nowdays in snarkpit,
when someone post up a thread, or reply to a topic, he should wait for
long tme to get any reaply, which actually pisses me off, but oh
well, life is hard... :razz:

oh btw, i stopped opening snarkpit when it changed from .com to .net,
so i thought it was under construction , until habboi told me its open
for a long time, so i got back here...and im sure lots of other members
left for not knowing its back with a .net on it . . .

---

.::Dark|Masta::. - One name. One legend.

A lot of the oldtimers went, that's true. People come and go,
completely natural. We've only had HL2 for a year, buds ... let's give
the new snarkpit members some time to settle in.

We're always complaining about the hordes of noobs flooding the boards,
but there are lots of interesting, polite new members too ... I'm not
biased for or against any members in particular, but it's not all bad,
you know.

---

:: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer

Definitely because of HL2 etc. HL1 was a cultist mapping situation- to map you had to put in effort. Nowadays HL2 encourages n3wbs to map. Sux.

---

-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

See I would answer this poll, but there isn't a "I dont find it Boring
at all around here" option. I guess its all about attitude..

Nah, not completely, Myrk-. You'll still see the difference between a
n00b's map and a pro. Though the quality of the textures and props
masks bad design much easier, yeah...

But hey, maybe we need to give it another year like others already said?

---

Create-ivity - a game development blog

MoneyShot said:
See I would answer this poll, but there isn't a "I dont find it Boring at all around here" option. I guess its all about attitude..

Get with the program then. Fishy already established that its "Other" :wink:

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

HL1 was a cultist mapping situation- <span style="text-decoration: underline;">to map you had to put in effort.</span> Nowadays HL2 encourages n3wbs to map. Sux.

Wrong. You see, the HL1 engine wasn't a very strong one. You didn't
have to bother adding tons of details and stuff like that in order to
have something cool (not exceptional, but cool). Now you spend hours
just decorating a single corner. If you actually give a damn about how
your map looks, I mean. True, you get lots of stuff for granted (props), but many still use good ol' brushes for most ornaments.

And HL2 doesn't encourage n3wbs to map more than HL1 did when worldcraft
came out. There are n00bish killboxes for every FPS you can imagine,
from heretic to UT2004.

This is, at least, how I see the problem. Like Orph would say, my 2 cents/. :smile:

Andrei said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>HL1 was a cultist mapping situation- <SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline">to map you had to put in effort.</SPAN> Nowadays HL2 encourages n3wbs to map. Sux.

Wrong. You see, the HL1 engine wasn't a very strong one. You didn't have to bother adding tons of details and stuff like that in order to have something cool (not exceptional, but cool).
</div></div>

No but you had a much smaller window of success with HL1. Since 1,000 was the upper limit upon which true success was measured against I feel that it was a bit harder to succeed with HL1 than HL2 ever will be. Another point is, you didn't have a bunch of pre-made props to spice things up to take peoples minds off of boring architecture.

I'm siding with Myrk on this one. I am not siding against you Andy, but I think you misunderstood his reply.

---

There is no history until something happens, then there is.

Oh lord, I had a freaking BOOK written out as reply to this thread and
then accidentally lost it all by clicking back on my mouse :sad: I'll try
and summarize it as I can't be bothered doing it all again!

What I feel has changed the most about the snarkpit since its early
days, is the removal of mapping from the community. I mean
obviously it is the common thing that binds us, but how many of our
active and vocal members are actually working on a mapping project at
any given time? Back in the early days (when the site was white) we
didn't have all that many members, but everybody was dedicated to
mapping and it was uncommon for there not to be at least a couple of
maps being worked on intensively. Can we say that about the site these
days?

While we have lost most of the website's early adopters, some of the
latter day HL1 mappers have now become our site's "old school". On top
of that, the fly-by-night members that joined with the arrival of HL2
have mostly come and gone, and we've been left with a set of new and
valuable members who have stuck it out. We can't expect everybody to
hang around, year after year, particularly not if their interest in
mapping has wained. Hopefully we'll retain some old names and faces
that can remember the way things used to be, but seeing new members
joining the ranks and old ones fading out keeps things fresh, for
better or worse.

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

I think its because Orpheus isnt here to yell at us for making n00b killboxes :smile:

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http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/8521/windows981dk.jpg

Nickelplate is my dad