Mapping changing your views on life and video games?

Hi people!

I havent been mapping for very long but i notice how i look at things differently!

When im playing a video game i feel less like im a part of this huge
world, and more like im on a level, and i can tell where the level ends
and the 3d skybox begins and that there's nothing beyond it (when i
first came out of the lab and saw the combine citadel i thought "omfg
this place is HUGE.")

Also, views on life - when i see something perty in life or in pictures
(of life :biggrin: ) i might think less "ooooo perty" and more "how can this be
reproduced?"

How has mapping changed how you look at games and life?

Welcome to our lives!

My appreciation for video games has dropped considerbly since I learned how to map :/ It kinda stinks knowing how games work!

It hasnt changed my view on life, but yes on video games, since now I
understand how they are made. Like the N64 Zelda game, I was looking
aroune and I thought, wow this is simple design (square rooms), and
MGS2 had complex design.

I actually apply this to when ever I play Doom 3, its a great engine,
and has great level design, but I dislike the repeditive the gameplay
(no im not thrashing doom). This way I appreciate the time and artistc
tallent that went into the game, and not hate the game because of its
poor gameplay like soo many people do.

Knowing how to map makes one appreciate the amount of thought and energy Valve put into its single player maps.

It's inspiring that way. And I guess you can take that inspiration further and extend it to other aspects of life.

Everything I see passes through part of my brain that says, Can thins go in my map, and will it make all the others mappers crap thier pants when they see just how i've done it?

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Nickelplate</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Everything I see passes through part of my brain that says, Can thins go in my map, and will it make all the others mappers crap thier pants when they see just how i've done it? </DIV></DIV>
I try to think of it like, "Will they crap their pants when they try to figure out how I got the damn thing to compile?" :biggrin:

Mapping and texturing have given me a big aesthetic interest in the properties of light, and I study reflections and such when I see them almost automatically now; people have no idea what I'm looking at.

I think mapping has definitely detracted from games. I'm more prone to
notice bugs and sloppy design, among other things. Like I was playing
some random PC game that used an LoD system on the props. At one point,
a faraway tower turned into a sprite, and my friend didn't notice even
when I pointed it out. But maybe that's not because of level design
actually, and my friend was just stupid. :smile:

I've also developed an odd interest in architecture too, probably because of mapping.

Omegaslayer, DooM Was awesome and cnahged the world of gaming forever!

Doom3 on the other hand had not only lacking gameplay, contrary to what you said, the level design is actually bad, it repetitive, FAR FAR FAR too dark, the weapon models are very poor, and the only decent looking enemy is the soldier. I mean, just look at doom 3's cacodemon, it farts for gods sake! Doom 3 does not have good level design, and despite what a lot of people might think, it does use a lot of square, or bland rooms, it just overuses Bumbmapping on a grand scale. That and almost none of the original team played any part in making it. The only thing to praise doom 3 for, is its texturing, but Chronicles of riddick has MUCH better textures, lighting and level design, even if it is only 1hour 30 long.

Chronicles of Riddick, escape from butcher bay, has to be one of the best games in a while, the same goes for vampire bloodlines (which uses the source engine) The level design in vampire is not the best ever, but the visuals are stunning, and for Riddick, i hated the film (pitch black was a great film though) but the game was great both visually and gameplay wise, they put so much thought into the level design. Also, mgs2 was not complex, the tanker was amazing, but the rest of the game was poor, lacking in both texture quality, layout design and details. That and the storyline was poo.

As for the actual topic in hand :razz: Yes, I think mapping has changed the way i look at games immensely, i will constantly wander around now and look at things, trying to work out how many units its made up of, and try to pick up tips from the proffesionnals, while at the same time ill see multpiple things wrong with some levels. I done really think its changed my outlook on life much though.

Cheers

PS: if your bored, play Chronicles of Riddick, i enjoyed it, and i hate Riddick. It reminded me of the stalone film, Breakout, or Lockup or somerthing similar. Its a good buy if you see it reduced, and dont play the Xbox one, youll miss out on driving a riot guard :razz:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Cassius</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Mapping and texturing have given me a big aesthetic interest in the properties of light, and I study reflections and such when I see them almost automatically now; people have no idea what I'm looking at.</DIV></DIV>
That is pretty much how it is for me as well. I've always been interested in architecture, so nothing changed there, but lighting and specular interactions fascinate me now in a way they never did before. I find myself wanting to light my apartment the way I would a good level.

I can stare at objects in the real world forever, looking at how light
and shadow effect it. I look at how buildings are held up, what
kind of random objects are placed around that area. I dont look
at back allys the same way anymore.

This isn't all becuase of mapping though. I am very much into art
and I have always looked at simple objects and non spectacular places
in a diffrent light. It really gives me a better veiw of the
world. There are no more places that are ussless, even empty lots
can have something to tell.

As for games... They haven't lost their fun, just their mystery.
I know now that once I walk past a point in the game world enemys will
spawn. I know if I go up and touch that button it will trigger a
wall to open and bad guys to poor out. In maps like de_train for
CS I know where people are becuase I know when I hear a sound some one
has touched a trigger. Its just like being a young kid and
finding out about gravity or friction. I understand the 'world' I
am now in. Like in HL2 when barny tells you to make a run for it
I know that I can stand in there for another 15 minutes and nothing
will happen, no people will bust in through the door. Not untill
I cross that invisible brush.

My appreciation for video games has dropped considerbly since I
learned how to map :/ It kinda stinks knowing how games work!

Whats worse is your appreciation for one way mirrors, once you know how they work.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Campaignjunkie</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext> I'm more prone to notice bugs and sloppy design,</DIV></DIV>

in a nutshell.. this says it all. :/

i was watching my brother-in-law play Halo2 on Xbox.. the levels were blocky monstrosities. i couldn't help but notice that even a first year mapper could have done better. :sad:
perhaps i am over-critical, but critiquing maps has made me realize just how well mapping can be when the author applies themselves.

Doom3 on the other hand had not only lacking gameplay, contrary
to what you said, the level design is actually bad, it repetitive, FAR
FAR FAR too dark, the weapon models are very poor, and the only decent
looking enemy is the soldier. I mean, just look at doom 3's cacodemon,
it farts for gods sake! Doom 3 does not have good level design, and
despite what a lot of people might think, it does use a lot of square,
or bland rooms, it just overuses Bumbmapping on a grand scale. That and
almost none of the original team played any part in making it. The only
thing to praise doom 3 for, is its texturing, but Chronicles of riddick
has MUCH better textures, lighting and level design, even if it is only
1hour 30 long.

Agreed.

The other main thing that hit me was how badly optimised the levels
were with regards to lighting. I knew that every single light was
dynimic and I'd say about 90% of the lights could have been
pre-calculated with no change to the visuals. The only lights which I
couldn't have done with static lighting were the rotating emergency
lights or some of the lights used in the cutscenes. Even if it wasn't
for the lackluster gameplay and lack of tension, I wouldn't have liked
Doom III for that fact alone.

Some parts of Half-Life 2 had poor level design but it was mainly
because the maps were meant to be realistic - we don't have random
trims everywhere with panels falling off and pipes coming out :wink:

For me, ever since I took-up mapping, the magic of games has gone. For
example, I didn't see a cool freight-train when playing HL2, but
a func_tracktrain and some prop_dynamics attached to it. :sad:

Without a doubt mapping has changed the way I look at things, as I try
and draw inspiration out of things I see around me and so pay attention
to things I would never have paid attention to in the past. As for my
view on games, I tend to try and suspend disbelief when playing and so
put my level design thoughts to the back of my head. In FPS's I tend to
be more critical and notice flaws, but in games that aren't as directly
related I try not to put much effort into thinking about how things are
done and instead just enjoy playing it. I do like knowing how games
work though, which isn't so much to do with my level design experience
but my limited programming experience. It bugged me for many years when
I was younger :smile:

people say that "the magic has gone out of games" yet i disagree. Ever since i have been mapping, I look to the makers of games to give me a challenge to rise to. When i see a level with complex entities and awesome brushwork, I try to think of how i can be better than that in my next map. I notice map flaws, but it doesnt make it any less enjoyable for me, I just make sure i do not make the same ones!

Hmm, let's see, I agree with tons of points in this post, however, I
really disagree with the subject of "Magic is Gone out of Games".
Now when I play games, I look at the levels, and check out how stuff is
made, some of the time it's the most simple architecture ever, but
thanks to the texture work and lighting they have done, the level looks
amazing. Or other times I'll look at how complex something is,
yet it looks like trash.

As for how it's carried over to real life is, I like to feel that my
ability at judging distances, heights, and so forth has increased since
I started mapping, also, I feel my skill in solving problems involving
laying stuff out or looking at an open space and visualizing what and
how stuff can fit in it, has increased a thousand fold.

Mapping is definately one of my favorite things I have picked up, and will continue to grow with it.

I really don't care what people say about doom's level design, it was
good, although repeditive. But big deal, you try creating concept
levels for a world that doensn't exist yet. As for the lighting, yes it
was dark, but that was meant to scare you, give you the feeling that
you were screwed the whole time. And I agree that the weapons were lame
looking. But I can still appreciate the time and design that went into
doom 3 after knowing how everything is constructed.

If anyone wants good level design go here:

http://www.ausgamers.com/files/details/html/15419

This single player had great design. But the AI was lacking (monsters
getting stuck). Still it was great to play because of how everything
flowed together nicely

lighting and specular interactions fascinate me now in a way they never did before

I think everyone has the experience of finding themselves staring at some inanimate object for long stretches of time. My fiance found me in the front door, mesmerized by the spot of sunlight flickering on the grassy knoll area next to our apartment. She thought I was having a petit mal seizure of something.

"Sweetie, what's wrong?"

i noticed something today, i never did with my old machine and its lower settings. things you pick up with that hurler weapon, cast shadows, but you do not :/

as for doom 3, i re-installed it in my new machine, and cannot wait to replay it. yes people, i like doom so much i actually struggled through it on my old system. i was, and am still, more of a doom fan than HL. ducks objects flung my way

as for its repetitive looking levels, i found it to be more of a comfort, than a nuisance. it reminded me that real life structures are exactly that, repetitive. imagine a hospital map, or a school, or even a military base. they all are repetitive, we have just spoiled ourselves into believing that mapping should be diverse looking with interesting, and/or eye catching architecture.

I thought about asking this question before. I always thought things like there's really something behind that locked door. Now that I map, games seem to have a lack of environment or something.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Campaignjunkie</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I'm more prone to notice bugs and sloppy design,</DIV></DIV>

in a nutshell.. this says it all. :/

i was watching my brother-in-law play Halo2 on Xbox.. the levels were blocky monstrosities. i couldn't help but notice that even a first year mapper could have done better. :sad:
perhaps i am over-critical, but critiquing maps has made me realize just how well mapping can be when the author applies themselves.

</DIV></DIV>

Agreed. Deffinetely.
I sit and play sven-coop, or Counter-Strike, and wonder, "How could anyone make something so simple?" I'm used to seeing you guys "knock something up" that's twice as good! In half the time!

Hi people!
I havent been mapping for very long but i notice how i look at things differently!

When im playing a video game i feel less like im a part of this huge
world, and more like im on a level, and i can tell where the level ends
and the 3d skybox begins and that there's nothing beyond it (when i
first came out of the lab and saw the combine citadel i thought "omfg
this place is HUGE.")

Also, views on life - when i see something perty in life or in pictures
(of life :biggrin: ) i might think less "ooooo perty" and more "how can this be
reproduced?"

How has mapping changed how you look at games and life?

To be honest, I've always had that "ability", but not just for game design. I can see it in a lot of things from art, games, to software (little harder).

Orph ... we ... have a common likeness!?? We're the only two people on Earth who still like Doom3!

<div><div>To be honest, I've always had that "ability", but not just for game
design. I can see it in a lot of things from art, games, to software
(little harder).

Orph ... we ... have a common likeness!?? We're the only two people on Earth who still like Doom3!
</div></div>

i'm waiting for the price to go down :biggrin:

To be honest, I've always had that "ability", but not just for game
design. I can see it in a lot of things from art, games, to software
(little harder). Orph ... we ... have a common likeness!?? We're the only two people on Earth who still like Doom3!

i'm waiting for the price to go down :biggrin:

Find it used or search Ebay. You can find it very cheap that way and you might even get the Pinky statue ... which I was suppose to get but the douchbags at EB only got 15 when they had about 200 pre-orders.
For Example

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>as for its repetitive looking levels, i found it to be more of a comfort, than a nuisance. it reminded me that real life structures are exactly that, repetitive. imagine a hospital map, or a school, or even a military base. they all are repetitive, we have just spoiled ourselves into believing that mapping should be diverse looking with interesting, and/or eye catching architecture.

</DIV></DIV>
True Orph, but that is only because of cost constrictions etc. If you go to a big university, museum, modern airport, etc. You'll notice that they go to pretty extreme lengths to make the buildings interesting. Besides, I see not reason not to improve on the real world where you can.

heh... Mapping changed me as a person. I used to play HL on my AMD-K6,
and had to wait for weeks to use my mother's computer which actualy
supported Hammer to a certain degree of usability. Back then we were
still on dial-up.. Those were the days... Now i'm a "bad-ass 3d
developer" as some of my more easily-impressed friends say. My mind
sees in wireframe sometimes. There's a little HEV voice in my head
saying appropriate things like "User death imminent" when my grade
report comes in... I draw maps during my lunch break. I dream of maps
when I sleep. I can feel a level change coming and by some odd twist of
instinct i quicksave right before that. Sometimes my friends wonder why
I lok like a zombie racoon... I tell them that spending 14 hours
straight trying to get some sequence right does that to a person. In
the last month, I fell asleep at the keyboard about 5 times.

I'm not insane

twitch

I read a forum post elsewhere a few weeks ago by someone who hasn't created any custom FPS levels himself and wouldn't know where to start if he wanted to. Basically, he was solely a gamer. He said he ventured into an editing forum for the first time and read about sv_cheats 1 & noclip, so decided to try them out himself.

He was horrified that the geometry just stops and the world doesn't continue onwards beyond what is seen when not using noclip. He said it had totally ruined the illusion of FPS games being a real world for him, and he wouldn't play FPS games with the same wonderment as before. Kinda amused me that some people obviously think that beyond the areas they're allowed to traverse is a fully functioning ecosystem or something, like developers create masses of extra content that won't actually be seen at all. :smile:

Do non mappers notice that in every HL/HL2 single player map the map
usually always changes within a tight narrow hallway. Heh I wonder.

Non mappers have no idea in my mind. I've made the mistake of
mapping around friends and once I get through explaining how it all
works and what I am doing they always give me their insane ideas for my
map.

"dude! put in, like, a huge machine gun there and a tank over here!"

or

"why dont you make a really tall tower in the middle so you can see the whole map[and kill the FPS and VIS blocking]"

That is why I think that any person who reviews games should know how
the work. I look at games that get a 5/10 and can forgive alot of
things that are wrong with the game because I know that they did the
best they could with what they had.

I've started to take more notice into real world wonders since I started mapping. Reflections from the surface of the water and things like that. I've also lost the "fear factor" from horror oriented games. Seeing the other side of games has definedly changed my view of them, but all in all I still enjoy them as much as before. I'm currently playing Sid Meier's Pirates!(the new one) and despite the fact that I've become rather FPS oriented lately I find it very enjoyable. Sadly I have to leave back to the army in less than 6 hours...

Its always good fun to explain to friends about balance issues.

I must admit, from what ive seen of halo (very little) my friends first
deathmatch level was excellent compared! he had a working teleporter!
he has good ideas! and it was fairly balanced. yes it was fullbright,
but it was good fun!

At the moment, I aim for good looking mostly, (prepare for a good
lynching) but those maps that look generic, sometimes have some of the
best layout and ideas, but dont look terribly great so dont get played
much.

Currently, I'm going to reinstall vice city to see if it looks any better on an ATI card, and ut2k4 for the same reason...

and yes, mapping i must say has changed my perception on games and
life, and this understanding of games is like being to give accurate
arguments for and against things, rather than "Is so!" and "is not!"

today, i sat noticing how inaccurate some work is done in places like schools, and how cool something would look ingame

thats enough of my ramblings :biggrin: time to make a portion of my village in hammer :biggrin:

i don't even talk to people whom only play anymore, assuming i know that they are such. i have had way to many bad confrontations from them with their attitudes on how a map should play.

without a working knowledge of what is involved with mapping, there is no common base to draw upon, it would be like attempting to describe the color blue to a blind person.

by and large, players are stupid people IMO and do not deserve the time it would take to establish that they don't have a clue.

i am not trying to incite a revolt or to get someone to defend these people either. sometimes the smartest people in the world can be so dumb on certain subjects, and players are totally in the dark about mapping.

they remind me of very small children "give me what i want" and actually have the nerve to blame YOU if the map fails to achieve their wants.

I've started to take more notice into real world wonders since I
started mapping. Reflections from the surface of the water and things
like that. I've also lost the "fear factor" from horror oriented games.
Seeing the other side of games has definedly changed my view of them,
but all in all I still enjoy them as much as before. I'm currently
playing Sid Meier's Pirates!(the new one) and despite the fact that
I've become rather FPS oriented lately I find it very enjoyable. Sadly
I have to leave back to the army in less than 6 hours...

I was playing Vampire the masquerade, and there was this one part where
you had to run through this hunted house. Paintings were flying
off the wall, lights would go out. Stuff like that, but it wasn't
scary for me. I knew if I walked over here I would trigger a
sound or a new event. When my friend played he almost shat his
pants. It was the same way with doom (though there were many
parts that made me jump) But I could always tell when there would be an
enemy behind a door.

I also agree with Orph, I've tested maps online with people and they
want everything in the map. They have the huge ideas that would
ruin any normal map. I think the best example of this is
dust_2_remake, a map made by a player.

This map had passage ways carved (yes carved) all over the place.
It was obivious that some kid had decompiled the map and added every
little passage he had wanted to the map. No need to say, but this
killed the game play and was truly the worst map I had ever played in
my whole life.

Hmm, he must be extremely naive. You should tell him that we actually live in a matrix and everything is an illusion (just to mess with him).

Oh, and ask him to give you all his money, because it's all an illusion anyways. :smile:

I've also lost the "fear factor" from horror oriented games.

So have I. A friend of mine lended me a game called Undying,
saying that it's one of the scaryest games he had ever played. I also
knew several other people who had the same opinion, some of them
professional reviewers for a gaming mag. I must say that I yawned
through half the game and laughed [at the poorly aligned textures
,which only a true detail maniac could notice] through the other. I
didn't see scary monsta's, but entities, I didn't see a scary mansion,
but cool brushwork... And I kinda' miss ye olde days, when I was
an impressionable 10 y.o. that fully lived the experience of Alone in
the Dark 3 (BEAUTIFUL game!).

Yeah, when I was little DooM 1 was scary, but it's not anymore. :smile:

Whenever i play Half-Life one or two, i always think how they made that or how easy it was even though its sweet.

I always say stuff to my brother when hes playing Half-Life, and gets
all pissed off. He'd say something like "omg this is sweet" and id be
like "thats so easy i could make that." Then he yells at me :/ .

And whenever I play any other video game, i think about how it was made. It kinda sucks. :sad:

And im the same way with scary games. They just arent scary anymore.

But perhaps the wonder is lost not because we are mappers, we're just more mature.

It just made me realize how f**king CHEAP-shot it was to CONSTANLY spawn Imps behind me in doom3

Yeah, having NPC spawn behind the player (where just a moment ago, there was nothing, and there is no possible way for the NPC to get there realistically) is just a stupid trick. It's unfair, and I never do it in my single player maps.

But perhaps the wonder is lost not because we are mappers, we're just more mature.

overall mappers seem to be more mature then just plain gamers... just
look at this forum and compare it to any other forum out there :biggrin:

Not necessarily. Mapping does require a lot more intellectual prowess than just gaming, that's why I am always impressed when I encounter a sub-teen mapper (I've seen a ten-year-old mapper before).

But just look around in the forums at TWHL. There are certainly no dearth of immature mappers. Maturity is not a prerequisite for mapping, unfortunately.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Bobv</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
overall mappers seem to be more mature then just plain gamers... just look at this forum and compare it to any other forum out there :biggrin:
</DIV></DIV>

true, and not.. a forum is as mature as its governing body, not its members. there are some very childish mappers out there.

snarkpit has a ruling force thats for the most part quite mature and laid back in doing it. rarely is a police action needed. but say GA, a part of their governing body is made up of quite immature people, and it reflects in their forum. truth be told however, the GA forums is not an integral part of the site as it is here, so its not a fair comparison to draw upon.

anyways, its the people in charge whom determine "mature"
i can also say, snarkpit wasn't always as it is today. a lot of work went into it, from everyone... from new members to the top.

I like pointing out all the little tricks that mappers use or have used
in a lot of games to my friends and/or girlfriend. While for the most
part it detracts from a lot of games, I also find some real gems that
someone took time to make or work on. I also have a much different view
of the world in terms of geometry, I have to remind myself that in the
real world stuff can be at odd angles with no performance hit on the
outer laying areas. :smile:

Lol, i'm thinking of adding an areaportal to my frontdoor so I wouldn't
lag so much when people cross by. :/ I like pointing-out things in
games too, but it usually gets people mad when I do so, so I seldom do
it anymore.

BTW, has anyone noticed how ugly the lighting is in most custom maps
currently being played online? Most either have
bright-yellow/black/white lighting or are very very very dark (100x
darker than lockdown) . My mappey-sense is tingling when I play such a
map :smile: .

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Gorbachev</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext> I have to remind myself that in the real world stuff can be at odd angles with no performance hit on the outer laying areas. :smile:
</DIV></DIV>
apparently, you have not seen some of the modern abstract art. it hurts to even look at it :biggrin:

Lol always makes me laugh when people (mainly magazines) talk about characters in game with "AI"... Fewls, SS is the word :razz: