Hmm, good point. I see you every day I am home and believe a very small portion of anything you post. (humour tag)

Seriously, I can see my own faults. People whom point them out, only make themselves look bad. There isn't anyone here saintly enough to do it without being so.

I firmly believe that many of the things posted here, are inaccurate to some degree, but I hardly ever say so. For all my trouble making, you'd never notice the times I abstain truly creating grief... IE that awful pride thread.. It insulted my very being to read some of the replies posted....

However, I could not find fault with the idea that each of us has the right to sound... awful sometimes.

I still feel that you view yourself, with regard to Snarkpit as purely incidental.

Thats not a compliment BTW. In your fashion, you cause nearly as much harm, as good.

[edit]

Read my site suggestion.. I need a green name to make a sticky for me. Assuming there is no real or untoward negativity to such a thread.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

i think mapping has grown too complex, it's not easy to map now, too many things to think about, too many entities, too much realism... too many ragdolls, too many good mappers, too much competition.

where are the gibs? someone tell me!!

and etc etc. i think those things make "mapping" sound scary and hard.

weee

IMO learning to map is the easy part. Putting your ideas into the map and sculpting them into something good is the hard part.

Everyone loves their own maps, regardless of how good or crappy they really are. Making something enjoyable to play and pleasing to everyone is even harder.

Most servers are content to load the crappiest maps I've ever seen (mostly
killbox maps) which lowers the standards considerably. But I'm not content to just create something better than a killbox map.

lerning to map is easy, to know how to make a good map isn't.

but you're right!

Well, to make a truly new and unique map now it takes a hell of a lot of work. I mean it takes larger companies months (and years cough Valve) to make a few maps. As a single person who's job is not to make a map for a specific game, you have other priorities in life and unfortunately as everything gets bigger and more complex it starts to get out of a reasonable time-frame.

I think the greatest part of mapping was taking unrealistic things and finding innovative ways to make it look real. Or taking a limited amount of things and add them together to make something nobody's seen before. Now, everything is ready-to-go and there's not much innovation. Well, everything is HERE, but its all so proprietary, i.e. rundown-eastern-european-city-specific props. I mean, where are the cars that are NOT smashed up?

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Nobody ever told you that you have to use all the exotic entities and special stuff. If the map plays well and looks well - by any means, people are genuinely not interested in what's behind the curtain.

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:: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer

Nickelplate said:
I think the greatest part of mapping was taking unrealistic things and finding innovative ways to make it look real. Or taking a limited amount of things and add them together to make something nobody's seen before. Now, everything is ready-to-go and there's not much innovation. Well, everything is HERE, but its all so proprietary, i.e. rundown-eastern-european-city-specific props. I mean, where are the cars that are NOT smashed up?

Yeah, that bugs the hell outta me!

Check out the models section for the ones Fishy fixed up :smile:

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

Nobody ever told you that you have to use all the exotic entities and special stuff. If the map plays well and looks well - by any means, people are genuinely not interested in what's behind the curtain.

Fellow mappers often are, though. And the mere presence of this overload of options often means people are going to use it, even though they know it'll be too much for them. I believe limits, how much we may dislike them (or did we actually like to push them? :smile: ), are a good thing.

Well, anyway, as CampaignJunkie already said, perhaps Portal with it's simplified style will allow people to get creative once more. I think I'll be giving it a go when it comes out - I'll play it anyway, so why not... :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

Yup, having to use a separate program (third, actually, not mentioning texture creation) for details in prop-form really lengthens the mapping process. Making a map of HL2 quality outside the theme dictated by the available props is close to impossible in a reasonable time frame. Even making a texture in high-res, with shaders and everything takes about 3 times as long.

So most people use the current ruined city theme which isn't all that exciting, also. Perhaps it's even this grayish texture and prop-set that affects the mood here, who knows.

A modeling forum (and some activity there :rolleyes: ) could spice things up. Or maybe a "secondary programs" forum for everything from photoshop and maya to terragen and blender. I'm sure there are enough questions that would fit there.

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Why snark works.

Well, thats kinda what the art forum is there for. I do feel that "art" might be a bit of a bad name for it however, as it perhaps suggests traditional art over art assets and so leads to a misunderstanding of its purpose.

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

The main thing that holds me back right now is that the HL2 model format is a real bitch. Seriously compiling a model can't be much more harder and the tools themselves are unstable to say the least. Also Hammer 4.0 is far more annoying to use than 3.5Beta due to such neat little bugs like inverted alphas on displacements...

And then there's the time issue, but I guess all of us have to deal with that. :smile:

What I'd like to see in the tutorial section is a tutorial(or a set of tutorials) that go through the WHOLE process of getting models working in game with all the right paths and filenames. I forget one thing and then it's the whole compiling hell all over again, trying to find the one line you've got wrong in some text file in god knows what directory... Sometimes I wonder what was moving inside the heads of the people who invented this workcycle.

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''Everyone wades in s**t until they're competent enough to walk on it. Jesus style.''
Dystopia - Empires

I can't believe it, but this thread actually got me mapping again...

No promises, I'm just trying out a more stylized map style, with an emphasis on a dynamic environment (cool moving staircases, sliding cover plates, etc) and abstract-looking buttons/portals/etc. Dunno where it'll lead to, if anything at all, but it's fun. Heh, thought it'd never come back again. :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

starts humming

"Love, is a many splendored thing....."

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The best things in life, aren't things.

modeling, and compiling the models and then compiling the textures
and getting them to show up in hammer is a serious pain. I had to find video
tutorials to explain the 15-step process in aggravation to export from maya, using
4 different programs and 1 plugin.

I got it to successfully work once, and I think it was an accident.
I probably couldn't do it again. Also, UV texturing is new to me,
another thing I will have to sit down and learn.

May I complain?

I just figured out that when I compile a simple physics model, it doesn't show up in the model viewer, so I had recompiled a model a dozen times, given up on it, gone back to it, re-made the qc file, and finally tried it in Hammer, that's when it actually worked.

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

I know the feeling. it does suck. The end result is sometimes
worth it though, almost.

I know nobody MAKES me use the exotic entities, but when i speak of making a map where there is no physics objects (like a pretty HL1 map) people tell me that they love the grav gun (which i hate [spamgun]) and think an HL2 map without it will suck.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

And at that point you either make what you like, or what they like. Is creating a level as you want it your hobby, or is creating a level that other like your hobby? :smile: But I understand you nonetheless.

As for HL2 models, I didn't have much problem getting them to work actually, perhaps that's because I'm familiar with the HL modelling process? I must admit that without the custom tools provided by the communities, it wouldn't be half as easy as it is now...

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

smackintosh said:
modeling, and compiling the models and then compiling the textures
and getting them to show up in hammer is a serious pain. I had to find video
tutorials to explain the 15-step process in aggravation to export from maya, using
4 different programs and 1 plugin.

I got it to successfully work once, and I think it was an accident.
I probably couldn't do it again. Also, UV texturing is new to me,
another thing I will have to sit down and learn.

These things ARE a pain in the rear, but once you do it a few times and develop a process, it's just like anything else - easy. All of these hurdles are aggrivating, but that is the nature of the beast with mapping, and it isn't likely to get any simpler. Nothing good comes easy, remember that.

correct. I'm just saying I was it was a bit easier with less steps,
but I suppose I took the hard rode by choosing maya to learn instead of
XSI. I'll eventually learn it after a few times. If it were easy, everyone
would do it. giving up is too easy.

XSI is pretty poor, or at least the free modding version is. I got my most success with 3ds Max.

Maybe I should try and do this "Blender to HL2" tutorial, I planned to write during the last CCC.

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Why snark works.

French Toast said:
XSI is pretty poor, or at least the free modding version is.

i've just started playing around with this free mod tool of XSI, but it still doesnt let me export it to anything other than dotXSI. It says you need to buy a registration key...

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

Good 'ol Milkshape for teh win! :smile:

For low-poly models it's still a fine tool if you're already familiar with it. Especially considering it's always been heavily tied in with Half-Life modelling.

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

French Toast said:
XSI is pretty poor, or at least the free modding version is.

i've just started playing around with this free mod tool of XSI, but it still doesnt let me export it to anything other than dotXSI. It says you need to buy a registration key...

No, not at all. You have to download the separate Half-Life 2 Mod Add-on (free), that will allow you to export to different files.

I just found even the basics of camera movement were too awkward with it.

Which reminds me, anyone here know of any .smd exporter for gmax?

XSI setup, ftw!
http://www.snarkpit.net/editing.php?page=tutorials&game=HL2&id=200

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

XSI is pretty crap compared to G-max/MAX. andrei, i believe the HL editing pack has the SMD exporters, though i cant get them to work properly, Wolf at the VERC has the link in his sigh.

There:

http://cubed.dk/nobody/

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RUST Gamedesign
pepper design

The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee.

I came for the mapping knowledge, stayed for the controversy, and was ultimately driven away by the vitriols.

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

What's vitriols, Precious?

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Vitriols

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SourDough2.0 - With Strawberry Jam

I'm not a frequent Interlopers visitor but they had this interview with the Rock24 creators and... it's just a plain normal interview, nothing overly revolutionary information-wise but it really made me feel like the website has some life in it.

interlopers rock24 interview

Among all the editorial stuff an interview can't be the most complicated thing and I like them a lot. Doesn't the Snarkpit have some older ones? That's something I'd like to see revived. Interviews with some great mappers working on interesting mods or maps. We'll sure get some links from the news sites this way, also.

++

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Why snark works.

hey guys

mapping is dead

modding is dead

thus this site really has no future

With the current generation of engines (and assuredly future ones) without personal skill in mapping, modeling, texturing, and skinning you simply cannot create unique content. Where back in HL1 with its handful of truck textures you could create all manner of vehicles with a little creativity, vehicles that could be customized per user and changed to add damage or cargo or whatever, you now you need to know modeling and skinning just to add details that before were easily downloaded off the internet or gasp created by brushes with about 10 minutes of effort. Modelers were always the rarest people in the HL1 community, followed closely by skinners/texturers, and the increased reliance upon their skills in HL2 choked away mapping. There are only so many ways to use eastern european building textures and shiny gray metal before it becomes totally boring. Throw on the 20 or so models that every mapper is forced to use for lack of options and viola, a dead mapping community. Pretty much every 'good mapping addition' of the Source and Doom3 engines served only to freeze out amateur mappers and modders, which were always the lifeblood of any FPS game's longevity.

And since 95% of the fps gaming community is dumb as dirt and is wowed by hard black dynamic shadows, every surface reflecting light like its polished metal, being forced to spend another thousand bucks just to get 30 fps, and the latest joke of a game EA/DiCE s**ts out it will never get better. It is time to accept that we are just anachronisms of an earlier and better time of computer gaming. I guarantee you there will never be the kind of editing community seen during the era between Quake 1 and HL, and it is totally because engines have progressed past the majority of people's ability to edit them. (and because newer engines add next to nothing in gameplay advancement or possibility but that's for another diatribe)

I predicted it back in like 2003, too bad I had no power to stop this bleak future. It's like I'm Kyle Reese sent back to 1982 to change the future but the Terminator has already killed Sarah Connor. :sad:

Nickelplate is right.

There are a lot of new users, and I don't see as much contribution to the site as there should be. I'm still working on that myself. I'm still learning quite a bit, so I don't have anything to share with everyone.

Sorry, guys.

Do what you want Yak_Fighter, but I will refuse to bow down! Somehow I'll tackle this demon... I might even write a modeling tutorial(no compiling, I can get that right only once every 1000th try). :smile: Blender is a good tool, but so many people get afraid of its slightly different UI, if I could make it less frightening... :smile: Yes, I'll write my very first tutorial: "Basics of Blender 3D" or something like that. :biggrin:

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''Everyone wades in s**t until they're competent enough to walk on it. Jesus style.''
Dystopia - Empires

Please write the modelling tutorial.
I'd be very intersted in reading it.

:biggrin:

I could write a tut on compiling static, phys, and dynamic props.

---

o

I could write a tut on compiling static, phys, and dynamic props.

I need to learn a modelling program first.
But this tut isn't just for me, it's for everyone.. so write it if other people need some help.

I dunno...

Learning to map for HL1 wasn't quite as easy as many of you seem to remember.

sigh :sad:

I mean it's all true, but even ignoring the prop-modeling problem (my hopes for it to ever be solved within this engine are dwindling) there's a lot that could be done within the limits.

I've seen some very nice maps using only HL2's standard content. Comparing these to other maps released, it's really 100:1 in quality. Maybe custom models ect. could add another 20% of originality but there's still enough that can be done without becoming a pro-modeler.

The (last) golden age is over but I don't see this to be reason enough to let the community die alone. You can decide to do so personally (I admit I had phases like this myself). But a place like the Snarkpit can't just decide to die and take the community with it. That wouldn't be fair towards new mappers that actually have potential.

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Why snark works.

I'm not saying that I wanted to make a map with completely author created models. I'm saying something similar to what you were about originality or maybe you or other people are like me and suddenly get desires to change the way an existing HL2 model is because you hate it. :smile:

Sorry, I'm changing subjects.

Hey I'm not saying I'm abandoning the community to die in some dusty corner, I'm saying the mapping and modding community is pretty much already dead and we are propping up the corpse with rope and imagining things are still good :biggrin:

And honestly, if I'm making an HL2DM map without being able to make custom props I'm pretty much forced to following the ruined cityscape theme otherwise my grav gun ammo wouldn't fit the map. I tried hard to go with a super industrial throwback-to-HL theme on more than one occasion back when I mapped and while I could hack together some throwable physics brush entities I was continually stymed by the lack of useful textures, and again because I don't have a digital camera or texturing skills I'm stuck using high rez textures obviously meant for bridges or buildings straight out of the 1970s, and that s**t dont fly for me. Because of higher rez textures taken from digital photos it becomes harder and harder to use them in situations they weren't designed for because it looks like ass, unlike the lower rez HL textures that could work for any number of themes. Granted I'm not the most creative person in the world graphics-wise so I probably didn't squeeze all I could out of em but these two points definitely had a huge impact on the mapping community.

Now that you mentioned textures.
A friend of mine mentioned that there is a plugin for Photoshop/Paintshop Pro 9/and GIMP. I guess you can have it automatically import textures that you can use or something. I'll ask him when he gets back from classes.. or wakes up.. whichever he decided to do today. lol

I could write a tut on compiling static, phys, and dynamic props.

I need to learn a modelling program first. But this tut isn't just for me, it's for everyone.. so write it if other people need some help.

Just to clarify, I meant that mostly as a general statement, since I have a decent grasp of writing QC files, and it can be an obstacle for someone wanting to make custom props. If it was directed at anyone it would be Pvt.Scythe, but mostly, as you said, it's for everyone.

---

o

Texturing plugins are nice but usually they don't really solve the most tedious parts of texture-creation.

And Yak_Fighter, you don't have to justify, basically you're saying what I think for a long time. I just don't think that mapping has died as dramatically as HL1 mappers tend to think. I just find it a little... arrogant... I mean not the intentional kind of arrogant more like... cynical... to say that the oldschool way of doing it is all that counts. But I agree it was more fun when there were no props and high-res stuff.

Anyway, you know you're right. I know you're right. I just don't like people like amanderino who are just starting to map (and perhaps figure out a way to make great maps in the future with the tools we're dooming) to come to a mapping forum where every second post is filled with frustration over having to deal with a new (2 years old) editing environment.

It's nothing new really. I felt that way about props before HL2 was released. I mean there's just so much you can complain about props and high-res textures. I'm sick of it. I mean sick of thinking about it that way myself all the time.

In the time it took to make 2 great HL1 maps you can make 1 great HL2 map. With mappers finally learning to work in teams with modelers or texturers (I know it's science fiction) not even that long. There clearly is a way to leave the current, declining cycle. And saying there is not... well... it's getting boring.

But yea, more detailed brush-editing in Hammer, a better set of textures ect. would be the only way of changing things fast. You can only do so much as a simple mapper...

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Why snark works.

Baron, please do write a tutorial or more about compiling. :smile: What do I need to know about making a Snarkpit tutorial before I start? Is there a guide somewhere where I can look up what works and what doesn't and where I can upload the pictures?

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''Everyone wades in s**t until they're competent enough to walk on it. Jesus style.''
Dystopia - Empires

I just don't like people like amanderino who are just starting to map..

Call me Aaron. :smile:

What do I need to know about making a Snarkpit tutorial before I start?

Good question. I'd like to know the same.
Tutorials are a great thing to have, unless they're confusing.
Maybe I'll get around to writing one.. or something.

Baron, please do write a tutorial or more about compiling. :smile: What do I need to know about making a Snarkpit tutorial before I start? Is there a guide somewhere where I can look up what works and what doesn't and where I can upload the pictures?

Just go with your gut.

Uploaded pictures are part of the tutorial submission form thingy.

OK, Aaron. :smile:

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Why snark works.